Ducks Unlimited Podcast

John Gordon: Hello, everybody, and welcome again to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. The air is cold. The birds are flying. It's that time of year. And I thought it would be a good idea, this, you know, being close to Christmas, that we talk to somebody that is a partner, a proud partner for Ducks Unlimited. And really, this is in their wheelhouse. They build a lot of great products that make great gifts. for Christmas. And I thought we'd go a little behind the scenes of product development with, uh, Justin Carpenter of Drake Waterfowl. He's a senior vice president. He's director of brand strategy. Justin, welcome to the DU Podcast. Justin Carpenter, DRAKE WATERFOWL.
Justin Carpenter: Hey, John. Thanks for having me on today. It's a pleasure to be talking to you today.

John Gordon: Justin and I recently got to share a blind together and, uh, that was a tremendous amount of fun in his home state of Nebraska. Justin, have you had a chance to get out much since then?

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, I got out this weekend. I spent some time pheasant hunting on Saturday and then this past Sunday got back out again for ducks.

John Gordon: That's one thing I, you know, that I was sad that we didn't get to do where you talked about doing upland hunting as well. Uh, this is all on DU Nation folks should be able to check it out. Uh, but to do the weather conditions, we had to switch gears, so we didn't get to do it.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah. It's a, it always seems like a good plan on paper to get up and go duck hunting in the morning and then go pheasant hunting in the afternoon. But man, especially when it's cold, like it was, it's, it's hard work. By the time you get to lunchtime, you're ready to put the waders on a boot dryer and. Get undressed and into your sweats and just kind of hit the couch, watch a little TV, watch a little TV, a little football.

John Gordon: Maybe that's a, that's about right. You know, and I went to South Dakota from there and, uh, talk about pheasants. I've never, you know, I don't live in the, in pheasant country. Right. So seeing all kinds of pheasants just running around on the roads, man, it was pretty, you know, it's really different for me.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's been a tough couple of years on pheasants up here with the weather conditions and being in a few years of drought. But we still have quite a few birds running around. It's got to be a lot different than what you're used to seeing down south.

John Gordon: Yeah, exactly. Which is nothing. It's sad. The upland hunting's dead here, man. I mean, Bobwhite used to be the king, right? We had some great quail hunting in the South and it's just all gone. And it's sad. I mean, I had a German short hair at one point and just pin-raised stuff. It's hard for me to justify, though, anymore. I just don't do it enough to really have a dog for it. You know, it just, I wish things would come back, but it doesn't seem like the best efforts they're doing are not bringing those birds back to us.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, you're just going to have to be a duck season snowbird.

John Gordon: Yeah, that's it, man. I got to travel. I got to go north. So anyway, Justin, okay, you grew up in Maine, right? And then, you know, how did you really get involved in the outdoor industry to begin with?

Justin Carpenter: I grew up, as you mentioned, I grew up in Maine. My family was big into camping and fishing primarily. My dad spent a lot of time more in the competitive shooting side of things, and so I was exposed to more of that than I was actual hunting as I was growing up. But, man, I just fell in love with the outdoors and, like I said, primarily on the fishing side of things. After college, I started working for L.L. Bean. Spent about four, four and a half years working for L.L. Bean. I was teaching in their fly fishing schools and I was doing a lot of hunting. As much as I love fishing, I was spending my entire fall hunting, even though some of the best time to be trout fishing, salmon fishing is in October, November. And ended up, position came up with Cabela's in Michigan. and I moved away from Maine, just packed my truck and drove partway across the country and went to work for what we called at the time, it was Disney World of the Outdoors. And we opened up store in Southeast Michigan. I spent almost five years there working in fishing department and in the apparel department, and then moved again for another role with Cabela's to Pennsylvania. and then a few years later moved out to the corporate office in Sydney, Nebraska. In the retail side of things, I spent between L.L. Bean and Cabela's maybe 11, 12 years working in the industry there before I moved into the corporate side of things. Really, I would say I learned a lot in the retail side, managing assortments, understanding the customer perspective, And shopping habits, and then when I moved to the corporate side is really where my experience changed quite a bit. I was working on product assortment, merchandising, product development. I spent some time in even process improvement. Over the years, you know, in the outdoor space prior to coming to Drake, I spent 22, 23 years working in various aspects of it and really fell in love with all the inner workings of how big box retail works. Again, the customer part of it was such a passion coming from the retail side of things. And then I was able to take that and really utilize that experience to help best develop assortments, pricing strategies, product development itself, to support, in the end, what our entire purpose is, the customer and the outdoors.

John Gordon: Right. And that's a great background to have in what you do now, I would think, because, like you said, you get a real feel for what the customer wants and what they need in a product. So, that had to have been a huge boost for you.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it really gives you a real window into what the customer's looking for on the sales floor or when they're shopping online. Being, obviously, end user, that adds another layer to it, of course, particularly on the product development side. I've always kind of been a tinkerer, if you will. Somebody's always looking for a better solution. So that makes the product development part of it really fun.

John Gordon: That's right. That's right. And, you know, you came into Drake at a very interesting time in history and had to have been very challenging because it was 2020. I mean, it was in the middle of a pandemic when I first talked to you and, you know, everything was kind of up in the air, you know, all across the world. And so from getting things built, done, it had to have been really challenging.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, I mean, being in the heart of the pandemic when I started, it was a completely different game compared to the type of work I was doing when I was at Cabela's. So I was traveling overseas, you're working directly with the factories. There was no opportunity to do that at that point when I came to Drake and, you know, learning new factories. learning, obviously, the factory contacts and building relationships with them, building trust, being able to communicate your needs with respect to products, features, technologies, etc., language barriers, time zone differences, all of that. It was a total level of complexity with respect to the development that I hadn't had to deal with before.

John Gordon: Right, right. And I'm sure it probably, you know, it helped you grow in the business because now, you know, you really can deal with just about any conditions, you know, if you have to, right? Yeah.

Justin Carpenter: It definitely made me more nimble and more… I just had to pivot a lot. I had to change course. I had to find different ways to achieve the same goal without being able to, you know, be face-to-face with a factory or factory rep.

John Gordon: I got you. I got you. Let's move forward here. We talked about this some when we hunted. The gear that we have at our disposal now is light years ahead of what it was when we were growing up, right? I mean, the fabrics, the lightweight, the breathability, just the freedom of motion you have with the waterfowling and hunting gear overall that you have now. is incredible compared to what it was, you know, 20, 30 years ago. I mean, how do you really see it moving forward from there? I mean, it seems like so really, you know, so great now.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. You think back. Like, it's hard to even envision what people, you know, fathers, grandfathers, great grandfathers before us did in the field with the technology they had or in reality didn't have back then. When I think of, you know. the gear that they had. And I'm not even talking about, you know, the tools to fool the game, whether it be decoys or calls, etc. I'm just talking about the products that we wear to keep us warm and dry. I mean, the first thing that I think of is, we're not men. I mean, really, they were men back then. I know they're wearing plastic bags on their over their socks and they're like they had to have been freezing cold and soaking wet. It's just it's hard to envision, you know, the the gap between where we are right now compared to what they had for technology and materials and fit, as you mentioned, compared to the gap that will be 10, 15, 20 years down the road for us. I mean, it feels like What more could we do with gear other than make it, you know, minor tweaks here and there to improve performance? But, I mean, I guess we'll see. But, man, it's a big difference between now and, you know, old cotton, waffle knit, long underwear.

John Gordon: Man, it's true. And their biggest waterproof and warm thing was wool, right? I mean, that was the thing then for water fowlers, especially in the North, that everybody, everything they had was wool. Right, right.

Justin Carpenter: And wool's still a great product, but I mean, there's so many other technologies now. that you can pick and choose what fits your needs, what fits your look, what fits, you know, your preferences, but it's still hard to beat wool, but man, that's all they had back then, or down. Or down, right. And even there, you get down wet and you're…

John Gordon: You get pretty cold. Got you. I got you. Okay. This is what everybody really wants to know, and this is what really fascinates me, is, okay, your approach to product creation, it's got to be, how do you just, you sit down and come up with an idea? Do you find out these things in the field? Do things hit you out there? Do people bring ideas to you? How does it really work to where you really start from?

Justin Carpenter: Well, that's a good question. It's a loaded question. There's so many different entry points into product development, and it does span the entire spectrum from something comes to mind while you're hunting in a field or in a blind or in a boat, whatever. you see something that would solve a problem for you, or it may solve a problem for somebody else that's with you. Sometimes you're looking at your assortment and you see a gap in a price point or in a performance trait or feature. You can see gaps in the market space where there's a function or entire purpose for a product that isn't being met by the market anywhere. working with factories or fabric suppliers, you can see, stumble upon a technology that you can incorporate into a product that you're going to use for water fouling. There's a lot, honestly, of crossover from other industries and sports where you can find, you know, it could be push-in for, you know, helmet protection, or it could be, you know, trying to think off the top of my head of some other industry.

John Gordon: I think a lot's coming from the military, am I correct?

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of product ideas that come from the military, for sure. And a lot of the military, I would say, particularly on the clothing side, they're gaining a lot of inspiration from the hunting and sports apparel industries. So, to answer your question, it's hard to say, but And with one definitive answer, there's so many, as I said, so many different entry points into the product development cycle. And you try to span at least some innovation. It can't all be innovation or you would be stuck in kind of the R&D cycle for a really long time. But it also can't all just be an update to this product or a tweak on that product. You've got to have core products in the assortment that you may look to update from existing product, you may layer in new price points, you may add additional technologies, and some of that comes from the white space analysis and looking at your product assortment. And then, like I said, you got to layer in your product innovation because ultimately, as Duck Hunters, we're kind of innovators, we try and find solutions to problems that we're finding in the field or new ways to build something that's going to change the game or fool the waterfowl or the deer or whatever our quarry is. It's really a blend of all. I don't know if that answered your question, but it kind of depends.

John Gordon: And that's what I thought. You're getting input from all over, you know, from yourself and from others. There's no one way that it goes about, I'm sure. Do you think it's tough to design different pieces of clothing or different gear parts, like new bags and gun cases and all that? What's really more difficult to come up with?

Justin Carpenter: You know, I'm just going to keep answering your questions with it, depends. So if you're talking apples to apples, there's levels of complexity that you will encounter on the apparel side that you don't encounter on the gear side and vice versa. So some of the things on the apparel side that make it a little more complicated to develop than you would have on gear is fit, fabric technology, different materials will stretch or behave in different manners than others, so you can't always just take One product, let's just say from a simplicity standpoint, you're developing a t-shirt. If you have one fabrication on a t-shirt, you can't just take your fit that you have on that t-shirt and then extend that to a completely different fabrication. You're going to have to make tweaks to that. You go through a whole set of exercises to improve colorations. There's obviously testing that gets applied to different fabrics. But on the gear side, depending upon what type of gear we're talking about, you have molds, you have parts that interconnect and work together. There's hinges and sometimes electronics. And so there's so many other aspects on gear, if you're talking hard goods or, like I said, electronics or blinds, that you don't have to deal with on the apparel side. And most companies, I would say, when they're playing in the gear world and, again, more on the hard goods side, aren't employing a host of engineers to design, develop from scratch all of their products and components. They're utilizing some of the factory resources. So some of that gets put back on to trusted partners that you're using and their engineers. On the clothing side, I would say that level of complexity is brought in-house more often. If you're just looking across the different companies out there that are building clothing and clothing at a high level, they're doing a lot more of the internal design and development that is getting sent overseas or to whichever factory that they're utilizing to execute. So to some degree on the gear side, A lot of companies are working with agencies or working with engineers at a supplier that can help execute the product to their requirements.

John Gordon: I gotcha. I gotcha. It sounds complicated.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, there's a lot to it. You know, you think maybe development starts with an idea and then you snap your fingers and you look at a product and it's done. Or you maybe go through two prototypes, but there's a lot that goes into it. Some products, particularly on the R&D side, take round after round prototypes.

John Gordon: Right, right. So, typical season, you've got several different prototypes you're working with, correct?

Justin Carpenter: Oh, yeah. Yeah. In the past couple years, really, since I started with Drake, we have really elevated the level to which we are launching product and expanding our assortment into new areas. And it's a juggling act. You've got various stages of prototypes going at the same time with numerous products. You can go from a pretty clean, organized office space to an absolute… It looks like a tornado hit it pretty quickly once you get into the proto stages.

John Gordon: I got you. But that's really the only way to do it, right? You've got to get it out in the field, got to test it out, got to see what works and what doesn't, correct? I mean, there's no way to fast track this. You've really got to test stuff out in the field, right? And really see what works and what doesn't.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, I mean there are shortcuts, but they're not good. Anytime you take any sort of shortcut, you're putting something at risk. So it could be the performance, function, features, it could be fit, it could be quality, durability, all of those things. If you cross your fingers and hope, you may be taking a shortcut, but it's at the potential detriment to the product and the experience in the field. But to your point, you do need to validate these products. What I was talking about there a minute ago with the prototyping stages of the development process, at the very end of that is your final validation period. Throughout the entire process, though, you're validating the product on one level or another, whether it be the actual fit, if you're developing something totally new there, or individual components of a product, or the actual testing of a fabric in terms of waterproof, breathability, insulation, abrasion resistance, any of those things. when you get to the end, or at least to the point where you've got a working prototype, there's a full-blown effort to validate the product in terms of in-field performance. And that can take, you know, it could be a short effort if it's a minor modification of something that's existing and you have known quantities and technologies But it could be a major effort if it's a complete R&D project where you're looking at a completely new item that hasn't been used in the field that's going to solve a problem for a user that really doesn't exist.

John Gordon: Man, pretty fascinating process, really. I'm sure, like you said, a brand new product must take substantially more time than, like you said, tweak to something you've already got. Oh, yeah.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, for sure. Tweaks can be pretty quick. And even if you're resourcing with a new factory partner, those can be pretty quick when you send your tech packs or your designs and your specs for the product, and then you can send a sample. Those can be pretty quick. But yeah, a new product can take months and months and months. And in the hunting world, particularly something, let's say, for instance, turkey, where your season is really short, there's only so much time that you're actually going to get hardcore in the field testing. So your entire development cycle needs to take into account the time frame when you need to have that product in the field. Or say on the waterfowl side, you've got waiters, you've got insulated apparel. If you're offline, if you will, with your development timeline, It could put you in May, June, July to test insulated products in the field. Nobody's really going to put the time in the field to really test and get accurate results on insulated products in the summer. So, what that does is it pushes you into testing it in the fall. And then that pushes you potentially outside your timeline if you've got a launch date that, you know, particularly if you're in a wholesale business where you've got to launch product to a buyer one year plus in advance of when that product is actually going to sell to the consumer, whether it be online or in a retail store.

John Gordon: Man, I think everybody's learning that, Justin, you've got a difficult job.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, somebody's got to do it. It's a lot of fun. And honestly, where calendar is probably one of the least exciting parts of the conversation in the product development side, but it is so critically important. My first week with Drake, we spent three whole days and we could have spent weeks working through it, but we spent three whole days working on dry erase boards, drawing out the calendar for the development process. layering in the spring timelines for the casual products, the fishing gear, the turkey assortment, and then layering in the waterfowl, deer hunting, the callister side of the house in fall. And it's amazing how much dry erase board you can fill up with those calendar dates and without even getting into the minor details of When are you going to order or develop the hang tags or when are you going to develop the graphics on the waiter boxes or any of those types of call it minutiae in the development process. The major tasks can fill up a huge amount of dry erase space.

John Gordon: Yeah, that's what people really need to understand. If you have a new turkey vest coming out and you don't have that joker ready to go in February, well, uh, good luck, better luck next year. You know, the timing is everything.

Justin Carpenter: Timing is everything. And you know, you layer in, when do you cut your POs? When do you, Meet with your dealers. When do you have your sales meeting? When do you print your workbooks? And you just keep going back in the timeline. And pretty soon, man, it seems ridiculous to be talking about a 24-month, 36-month timeline, depending upon the level of effort and the development. But it gets there pretty fast when you start backing out from launch date to, like I said, to meeting with your dealers and buyers to printing your workbooks, et cetera.

John Gordon: Man, great stuff. Great stuff. We're going to take a little break folks. And we'll be right back on the Ducks Unlimited podcast with Justin Carpenter. Welcome back, everybody, to the Doug Sullivan Podcast. My guest today is Drake Waterfowl's Justin Carpenter. He is Senior Vice President and Director of Brand Strategy and the guy really behind the products you see on the shelves that are out every year from Drake Waterfowl Systems and, you know, at various lines. People forget that y'all have, you know, the non-typical deer hunting stuff, Old Tom Turkey. Performance fishing, casual, I mean, it's a really all-encompassing deal.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, we've got product that really hits every season in the hunting and fishing space, as well as spring, summer, fall, winter, in terms of casual. We really have product for all year. Our tagline, always in season, you saw on fixtures and on our website for years and years, and it truly is accurate. We've got product for every outdoor endeavor.

John Gordon: Let's talk a little about new products. that came out this year, Justin, and one that I'm really excited about and one that I really like that I was just wearing in the field when I was on the road are the H&D waders. And waders have come so far, and that's a piece of gear that is all about comfort and keeping you dry. Tell us a little bit about developing that new wader.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, so 1st, I guess they'll say you hit the nail on the head there when you said a piece of gear waiters have come such a long way from the earlier materials, the canvas and rubber where they were just a means to an end. And I would even say. a pretty uncomfortable end in a lot of cases and in so many ways. They have become something that duck hunters and fishermen can geek out about. I mean, this is a piece of gear. It is as critical to your success and comfort in the field as anything else that you take. And as a result, there are a number of brands out there making waders and the The waiter market has advanced so much that this has become a product that is a pleasure to wear and helps you become more effective, stay in the field longer, endure more difficult conditions, and go home. I mean, ultimately, we all want to go home safe, and a bad pair of waiters can set you up for failure for sure.

John Gordon: Oh, it's the truth, man. If you're out there in the field, well, you get wet. Depending on the temperature, it could be real serious. Yeah, 100%.

Justin Carpenter: So this new HND wader that you mentioned was the labor of love for me because waders are fun to work on. They're not just the old technology that you just You need to build something to be able to put on over your, you know, your lower half and try and keep you dry. Now we're past the point of warm and dry. It becomes more about something that's comfortable, something that has some features that benefit you, whether it be the correct pocketing or, you know, the shoulder straps or the front zipper was a huge advancement in the waiter game. I remember a friend of mine got a pair of front zip waders years and years ago, and he was somewhat excited, but a bit skeptical of them. And I laughed at him. I thought, well, you're only going to wait up to your hips, because anything above that, you're going to get soaked. You know, I can't even, it's hard for me to envision putting on anything other than a front zip wader at this point. I mean, there are plenty of great waders out there. We have a couple pair of waders in our assortment that don't have a front zip and they're super comfortable and they're warm and they, they keep you dry and they, they have, um, all the features you need in a wader. But once you go front zipper, it's hard to, hard to go back.

John Gordon: Oh man. It's a truth. And it's all about, it's all about the call of nature, right? In a lot of ways, man, because it's like, But in the old days, man, especially with neoprene waders and neoprene was a big advancement over the canvas and rubber days. Right. But my goodness, man, getting those things off and, you know, and, and down and everything else. And you're freezing to death and there, you know, it was, it was rough.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah, neoprene waders are still a pretty good part of the business, and they provide a huge benefit. They're warm, they're comfortable, they can be a little more difficult to put on, particularly if you're wearing a pair that's, you know, keeping your garment snug to the body, which ultimately is going to help keep you warm and mobile. But yeah, going to a breathable wader, particularly with a front zip, has totally changed the game. But with this HND waiter, I mean, one of the things that I was really excited about building into this waiter was first and foremost, I'd say first and foremost, but one of the pieces that was super important to me was the fit. You know, there's lots of waiters out there and the difference between it with all things being equal, the difference between a waiter that you're going to be truly comfortable in and versus one that you're gonna wish was a little bit different can be the fit. I worked really hard, spent a lot of time working with our tech design team on the individual dimensions, updating the patterns, going back and forth and back and forth with the factory, trying to make adjustments, the minor tweaks. It's, you know, getting something that works and something that works really, really well can be a huge difference in terms of level of effort And when we were down to the wire on those waiters in terms of a, the timeline and, and B the last things that we needed to accomplish, it was the little details that made all the difference in the world.

John Gordon: Exactly. Exactly. I'll tell you a detail that I think in my opinion is the best one of these that y'all have had on a waiter for sure is the boot. That boot is really good, comfortable, great grip. It's really outstanding.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, that boot was the other part that I really worked hard on. So the fit and the boot were the two main components that I spent the bulk of my time working on with this new wader and designing the new outsole, moving from a calendar sole on the previous style to a injection molded outsole and a nice cushion EVA midsole with a good fit. Traction, super important. It's just a huge upgrade in this wader.

John Gordon: It is. It is. It's great. And I like the whole HND line. You know, I've got the bag and the case as well. Those are great. I mean, especially if you're in boats, things like that, where there's constantly water splashing around, those things really keep, you know, both, you know, your gun safe and dry, your gear safe and dry. Really nice work. Thank you.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, the whole HND line is, particularly when I'm talking about the gun case and the blind bag, stem from me hunting in really small boats with a dog and getting soaking wet all day long. You can't go into those conditions without wearing a waterproof, breathable jacket. Obviously, the waders are a component of it, but the traditional blind bags will soak up water, even if they do keep the contents within dry. You're dumping water out, you're squeezing water out of it, everything becomes a mess. That line of products, I wanted something that you could wipe off with a towel or a paper towel or napkin, and you'd have a dry inside of a blind bag. You can keep your contents completely protected and It's always more comfortable when you get her out there and none of your gear is soaking wet.

John Gordon: Isn't that the truth? I mean, you brought up a great point with boats and dogs. There's no way around that dog, not shaking water all over you at some point, no matter how big the boat is, you know, they're, they're always going to do it. You know, well, what are they going to do? They can't shake in the water. So they got to get up in the boat to do it. And so that really, uh, places a premium on waterproofing, uh, on your gear when you, when you're dealing with dogs and you and I are both dog guys, man, we love our dogs, man. You know, they're going to be there.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah. And I mean, I, I try and teach my dogs to shake on command, but they're still animals and they got a mind of their own and they want to be next to you and. Yeah, they drip and they shake where they do, and sometimes it's not in the ideal location.

John Gordon: Speaking of that, you all have really expanded your dog product line in a big way. I've really noticed that over the last year. That's got to be a lot of your influence, am I correct?

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, for sure. The dog collection, you look at a few different things that dog hunters you can almost guarantee that duck hunters will have. One of them is a dog. Obviously, shotguns, the ammunition aside, pickup trucks are another thing. But, you know, none of us like to retrieve all of our ducks on our own. We like sending the dog and watching the dog work and It's a natural extension of the Drake product, and we had a few different pieces, primarily some training bumpers, some collars and leads. But the dog collection is something that we've expanded significantly, and we will continue to grow in the coming years.

John Gordon: Excellent. Excellent. I'll be looking forward to all that, man. I'm a sucker for dog product, that's for sure. Yeah.

Justin Carpenter: It's amazing. There's people… I mean, I'm describing myself as much as anybody. Man, if I'm on a budget for whatever it is I want to purchase, if it becomes a conversation about buying stuff for my dogs, it feels like budgets go out the window.

John Gordon: It's the truth, man, from what you feed them to, you know, everything. With the dogs, it costs money, but it's a labor of love kind of thing, and you don't ever really think about it. At least I don't. No. The dog's got to have it. Okay, well, there it is.

Justin Carpenter: Definitely, when it comes to your dog, you spend with a smile. Here's a question for you.

John Gordon: You have a favorite design so far that you've worked on?

Justin Carpenter: You know, it's a good question. I would say, honestly, I mean, we've talked quite a bit about the HND waders, partly in terms of the amount of work that went into that and the amount of testing and detail and pushing, honestly pushing at times to get those last components dialed in just right, that's something that I'm probably look back on with some of the more fond memories of development and certainly with some of the greater appreciation for the end result. I hunt, if I had to guess, 95% of my waterfowl hunting is in the water. There's a few times a year that I go in a field. And so I'm almost always wearing the waders when I'm hunting. And ultimately, I wanted something in those waders that enhances my experience, but kind of my measuring stick for whether or not a product has achieved what I want, particularly on the clothing side, is when I don't think about it. So I'm out there in the field and I'm dry, I'm warm, I'm comfortable. The features, whether it be a hand warmer pocket or shell pocket or a wading belt or whatever it might be, they don't get in the way or I don't have to think about where they are. It just becomes an extension of me. And when I can achieve something that I don't have to think about when I'm in my field and I'm just I'm working synergistically with it. That's when I feel like I've achieved success or that product is achieved its desired goal. And I guess I got to say with those waiters, that is 100%. where we've landed on those and they're such a pleasure to hunt out of and it's a piece of gear that just enhances the experience. There are a few other pieces that I really like as well in addition to that. Our dog stand for that we launched this year is a really cool multifunctional stand that you can use in the field with if you buy it with the blind attached or it works beautifully in the water. We mentioned the HND blind bag, which has been super functional for me, being that I hunt in wet, I mean, not just wet conditions, but wet conditions in a small boat with a dog. It's changed my game for sure. The Ultimate Wader Pants is a pair of pants that I really like and have enjoyed wearing over the past two years. We actually launched that in fall 22. And those are super breathable, really, really warm. They add a layer of functionality that you don't see in a lot of waiter pants out there in that you can taper down the leg to get in and out of your waiters without them bunching up or pulling up as you put your foot in the boot. And then when you're done, you can expand them to look more like a traditional pant, which fits over the top of a boot or shoe. So if you're driving home, you stop at the diner or stop at A store, you don't look like you're wearing tights. The gun stand is a really cool tool. That one was a product that took a lot of time. That one took probably closer to 36 months to develop. And it solves problems for particularly a marsh hunter or somebody who is going to be hunting, standing in water and doesn't have a place to hang. anything that they're carrying in, whether it be their shotgun, their blind bag, the thermos, ammo. This tool allows you to operate hands-free when you're setting decoys, picking up decoys, retrieving a cripple, working the dog. It's a really cool tool to offer a solution that really isn't out there. And there's some other tools out there that do something similar, but they don't provide the functionality that this product does. while still being portable. And that was one of the big things that when you're walking in to a spot like that, you probably don't have much capacity to carry a pile of things, or certainly not a pile of bulky things. And so, this item, the gun stand, really solves a lot of problems and is still easy to carry in.

John Gordon: Exactly. And that feels a big need. There's folks all over the country. That's how they have to get into their spots is walking in. Man, when I was a kid, that was the way we got into everywhere, unless you were in a boat. But the ATV, UTVs kind of changed a lot of that. But on public land, you're not allowed to use that kind of deal. So you have to go in on foot. So that's a great product for the walk-in hunter, for sure. Let's talk about one line that's really expanded over the years that I was looking at the other day that used to just be basically a jacket and a vest, I think, for years is McAllister. And McAllister, it's got the old school style, the old ways of duck hunting. People love that. It seems like always making a comeback. But expand on the McAllister line a little bit, Justin, because y'all have brought out a huge amount of products in that line.

Justin Carpenter: Yeah, that is a product and a brand that has such a passionate following, even though for a number of years, as you mentioned, it was whittled down to just a few products. When I came on in 2000, late 2000, it was just four pieces, a couple jackets, a shirt and a vest. And I set to work immediately on bringing back that brand and expanding that into A pretty sizable collection, and we're still expanding upon that and looking to grow that brand. But in 2020, I guess, 22 when we saw the launch of those new products I was working on. We went from those four pieces to, I don't have the number off the top of my head right now, but somewhere in the realm of 45, 48 items. We expanded it into a few lifestyle pieces, which are more casual, crossover into hunt solids, and then a significant expansion into the upland collection. We've got an upland vest, some pants, a handful of shirts, headwear, gloves, gun cases. It's a pretty cool collection of products. And what we try to do with the McAllister assortment is stick to a more traditional look. And in some cases, utilizing traditional materials and fabrics, whether it be waxed cotton, cotton, wool, down, or as well as, I should say, expanding into some of the technical fabrications and garments, where you see a 3-in-1 waterproof breathable on the waterfowl side. And then, of course, as I mentioned, the McAllister collection, or the McAllister Upland collection, I should say.

John Gordon: Yeah, like I said, I was just looking through it the other day, and I noticed that new 3-in-1 jacket, which is, man, I was like, wow, that's really a departure from the old McAllister days right there, you know? And it looks like a pretty cool garment.

Justin Carpenter: It's a really, really nice, really warm garment with some technical features, with pet zips and really comfortable, easy-to-use cuffs. I've updated the fit on that to be a little more in line with the old McAllister look, fit and feel. It's a really nice garment and being in solids, it just kind of fits the brand of the McAllister customer and the old McAllister product line. It's a really nice garment. And that's, like I said, it's a three-in-one. It's got a zip out liner that's kind of a hybrid of materials utilizing polyester interlock with some breathability and stretch, and a synthetic down insulation material.

John Gordon: Gotcha, gotcha. Man, wow. This has been great, Justin. I mean, really enlightening, you know, for me, and I know for the audience, too. Like I said, a little peek behind the curtain of what goes into, you know, you're strolling through Max Prairie Wings and trying on a garment. And it's like, man, you got to think about, man, all the time and effort that went into this. It gives me a new appreciation for it.

Justin Carpenter: The devil's definitely in the details on this, and that applies to fit testing efforts or color approvals or the calendars we discussed earlier. There's so much that goes into it. And honestly, you could almost put any level of detail in getting a product completed, but You got to try and get the product done in a certain amount of time, call it 24 months. And I'm just kind of rambling here. It's definitely the devils in the details on building the product and. You know, you can take it to the nth degree on all of the aspects, whether it be color approvals or fit approval and testing validation in the field. It's just there's a lot that goes into it. It's a lot of fun, but you have to be attentive to the details for sure.

John Gordon: Man, very good, very good. And from a Ducks Unlimited perspective, man, thank y'all so much for Drake Waterfowl being a proud partner with Ducks Unlimited and supporting, you know, Ducks Unlimited television, DU Nation and all that, man, it's really appreciated. And y'all have really been great and really great partners in conservation.

Justin Carpenter: I appreciate it, John. We're super proud to be partnered with Ducks Unlimited. We've got a longstanding history together and, you know, the future of the duck hunting world is, you know, it's, it's dependent upon the being good stewards of the resource and, um, bringing youth into the sport. And, you know, it's, we couldn't be more proud to be partnered with you.

John Gordon: Very good. Very good. Well, folks, thanks for listening again to the Ducks Unlimited podcast and for supporting waterfowl and wetlands conservation.