Ducks Unlimited Podcast

Chris Jennings: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I'm your host, Chris Jennings. Joining me today on the show is John Pullman. John, what's going on, man?

John Pullman: Hey, not a whole lot, Chris. Thanks for having me on.

Chris Jennings: Not only is John the Central Flyway Migration Editor for Ducks.org, he also is a huge contributor for Ducks Unlimited Magazine, writing features, and he is basically the writer for the Campus Waterfowl section, if any of our listeners out there are You know, get that section. It's for some of our younger members. But John, one reason I wanted to have you on the show today is you wrote a feature for the magazine, you know, in regards to late season water fouling secrets. And that's a topic of discussion every year. It's wildly popular in everything that we do. Any of these late season pieces in the magazine or online or anything that we do that involves a late season tactic. really, really garners attention from our audience, and I think a lot of that has to do with, you know, sometimes people are getting stumped by these, you know, late-season birds, and one of the most interesting things about this is that this is different everywhere throughout the country. A late-season duck hunt in New York, upstate New York, is a lot different from a late-season duck hunt in the Central Valley of California. So, you were able to reach out to some of these experts that, you know, really brought some unique ideas. And some people may say, oh, you know, I've heard of that before. And some people, you know, may not have. But kind of just before we get into some of the specifics of these tips, you know, how did you go about approaching this just knowing that, you know, it is regionally, it's different. Late season hunts are different all across the board.

John Pullman: Yeah, you're exactly right, Chris. And I think the reason they differ so much from region to region, one is habitat type, right? A duck that's northern California is going to be a lot different than one in, let's say, in New York, like you mentioned, or in Missouri. habitat, the types of cover that you're hunting, the types of food sort resources you may be hunting are going to be different. And within all of that are different challenges in terms of concealment and in decoys and all those factors of the hunt. So that's one part of it. And two, the types of birds too, right? Mallards and Canada geese may be different than birds that you're hunting out in the eastern shore of Maryland. Regionally, you've got different different factors, whether it's the birds or the habitat or the weather, the types of weather, the way the weather changes or the way the weather doesn't change too, it makes late season hunting a challenge. And so I just try to take a big picture look at things. And even though they're different though, as someone that doesn't hunt California though, some of the tips that that Riley provides from California, I think can be, they are applicable to other areas of the country too. And so, try to get a big picture look at things, but also things that are applicable to wherever you're trying to hunt birds late in the season.

Chris Jennings: Yeah, and we'll start off with that first one, which I think you kind of hit the nail on the head there with. saying that this, this is kind of applicable all across the board, even though this tip, you know, came from someone in the Central Valley, California, um, finding new feeding areas, you know, what exactly are they, you know, kind of trying to explain as far as finding new feeding areas?

John Pullman: Sure. So the gentleman I talked to, Riley Hall, Riley's from Merlot Waterfall Company. And I had just a great opportunity to hunt with Riley here a couple of years ago. And my first and only trip so far to California and just blown away. at just the scope of the hunting there. We were hunting rice chicks and we were hunting, we hunted a small little water plummet one day. For a guy that's hunted primarily in South Dakota and the Central Flyway my entire life, getting to experience that was so, so cool. And so Riley, he has a completely different situation in terms of what he's hunting versus what I do. But the connection there though is that it's about how ducks and geese, they start to change their feeding patterns late in the year in response to hunting pressure and to the weather. And so those are things that we see here too in South Dakota and further down the flyway. And in California itself, where so much of the feeding activity happens on managed ground, you'll see these birds, they start to associate these rice checks with hunting pressure. Every levee that's got decoys thrown out around it, those birds start to recognize after a while, late season birds are smart, they figure out the game. that they start to avoid those places because of the hunting pressure. And so they start to look for these little nooks and crannies in kind of out of the way places to feed and to rest during the day. And so a lot of times these are fallow fields, fields that were not planted, that have been sitting idle all year. and that maybe have not had any active management on them in terms of water. And so if you get a late season rain event or some sort of precipitation event that'll cause a little bit of natural flooding, these fallow fields that have been kind of out of the way and nobody's been paying attention to them all year, all of a sudden they become the ticket, right? They are the hot spot. And so, you know, Riley, when it gets to be late in the year, if they have a sort of a rain event, I mean, he's immediately, he's going to turn his attention to that, to find these little hidden spots that are dynamite for mallards and for pintails. And he'll use them also for speckled bellies and some snow geese as well. Um, and it just becomes, uh, the ticket for them at that time of the year.

Chris Jennings: Yeah. And that's not really a whole lot different than anywhere else in the country. I mean, I'm just kind of, you know, running through my head, you know, Arkansas is very similar, you know, those ducks start getting into some little bit smaller water. They start really, really steering clear of decoys, you know, those slight changes, but really, you know, when you, you kind of mentioned, um, get a little bit of new water. Um, that new water and typically, you know, we, especially when I say we, you know, this kind of Mid-South region, we typically do get some new water, you know, late December, early January, we were prone to some, some late winter thunderstorms that put some new water on the, on the landscape. And that's the kind of things that the hunters really need to key in on. I think it's interesting that, you know, he's in the Central Valley doing this and that's a pretty heavily hunted area too. So, you know, and like you mentioned, ducks learn pretty quick.

John Pullman: Yeah, they do. And a couple of things that stuck out to me that Riley said that I thought were interesting though was how he hunts them, right? And so once he finds this little isolated pocket of water, he does a couple of things that I think are pretty interesting. One is he cuts down on the number of hunters that he takes with, and that's all based on concealment, right? They're going to be, since they're in a secluded corner of a field or wherever, they're not anywhere near an established, a permanent blind situation. So he's either using natural cover that's there, whether it's trees or rushes or some layout blinds. But in order to stay hidden, he's going to cut back. And so instead of taking five or six hunters out, he's going to cut that down to maybe two or three in order to stay hidden. Because these birds, again, just because they've moved to a new area, they haven't gotten any dumber. They're still going to be smart. They're going to be wary. And so he cuts down on the number. And then he also cuts way down on the number of decoys too. And so, you know, when you walk, when you drive through, you know, that central valley, you know, you would drive by these, you know, these permanent blinds and there are, you know, a couple hundred decoys at each one of them, right? And you see that in Arkansas too or any other place where you've got, you know, permanent established blinds, great big, huge decoy spreads. But when he gets to this point of the season, and I've heard other hunters say the same thing in Arkansas and Missouri, but at this point of the season where they will drastically reduce the number of decoys that they use, sometimes to maybe a single decoy or two, three, four, five, six decoys, just enough to get the attention of the birds, but not to overwhelm them, right? Because again, those birds are associating this large decoy spread with trouble, with hunting pressure. And so, cuts down on the number of hunters, cuts down on the number of decoys he uses, and then he keeps the attention, those decoys or any motion that he may be using is away from the hunters. And so, ducks are keyed in on that, on the decoys, and they are not looking at the blinds or the hunters themselves. And again, it's all about concealment, about trying to fool these birds and to trick them into doing something that they don't really want to do, which is find themselves in front of the hunters. So it changes his approach completely. And again, that is something that we all do and we do here in South Dakota. Late season, we are taking the attention away from us and putting it on the motion decoys or the decoy spread itself just to keep the eyes of the birds off of the hunters.

Chris Jennings: Yeah, and I think everyone tries to do, and like this is not certainly something that other hunters don't do by any means. I mean, I think everyone does it, but I think what's cool about these is hearing how other hunters, you know, change their tactics as it gets later in the season. It's not necessarily the tactic itself always, but the slight variation of that late season tactic that you're like, ah, Maybe I'll try that, you know, something like that. But the next one, the next tip that you have is probably one of the ones that sticks out to me the most, because where I hunt, we get absolutely destroyed on a full moon. It's over. You might as well stay home. Um, you know, we're. That full moon always seemed, now I'm hunting a lot of rice fields and big rice fields, and so those birds can get out, feed all night long, they don't do anything, then they're sitting. Several different oddities go on when that full moon is in effect. But who did you talk to and kind of share this kind of making the most of the full moon, which is interesting?

John Pullman: Yeah, and so when I think of a full moon and hunting situation, immediately the first guy that comes to my mind is Tony Vandenborg. Primarily because my first time hunting with Tony down at Habitat Flats, we were in this situation. It was a full moon, ducks had gone nocturnal, and they were really, really tough. And so I immediately thought of Tony in that situation. And what came to mind was that while I was in camp, we really hunted hard on the book ends of the day, right? Trying to catch some of these birds that are moving from feeding areas back to roost right at first light, or vice versa, right at the end of the day. just to see if you could scratch out some as there, any early movers or late movers as it may be, to try to catch them in between places on the full moon. But the other one, though, was to watch for a change in the weather. And when I was at camp with Tony that first time, first couple of days were tough. We hunted early, we hunted late, and didn't have a… We still saw some birds, but it wasn't what we knew it could be. But then the last day, it rained. And that one change in the weather, and to be honest with you, I hate hunting in the rain. It's probably my least favorite thing to do. I want sunny skies. I want cool breeze. I want cool temps and sun. But that day, I loved the rain because the birds finally moved. It shook them up out of their pattern. And that's what Tony talks about in this piece is that And when you're stuck in a full moon, when you see any sort of change coming in the weather, whether it's a drop in temperatures or a big wind or precipitation, that's a day when you're going to be out because it's just enough to shake them up a little bit, get them out of the routine and get them up and moving again during the day. And I don't know why. I'm not a mallard duck. I can't tell you why that is. But it happens. And so that was his big thing. You're stuck in a full moon. Watch for that change in the weather. And that's the day you're going to want to be out there.

Chris Jennings: Now, that's great. And that's that's the day when you don't want to stay home. When I said, you know, full moon for us, most of us are staying home. It sounds like, you know, just keeping an eye on that weather. Any change whatsoever, even if it's kind of an insignificant, like you mentioned, maybe it's just a slight difference in the temperature, or even a little bit bigger wind, something like that. Definitely, that's something to keep an eye on. That's a good tip, and I'm sure Tony's dealt with that every year. He typically deals with that full moon at some point. I usually see him posting something on social media about it and complaining about the moon itself, but sounds like he's found a way to figure it out a little bit.

John Pullman: Yeah. In his words, he says he has a love-hate relationship with it, right? Yeah, that's perfect. Full moon in August delivers first teal of the season. Full moon in October, he's seeing migrators roll in. But that full moon in November and any full moon in December, that's when it starts to be a trouble. And so he does. He's got a love-hate relationship with it. And the other thing that he mentioned too is just that the importance of managing the pressure that he puts on the birds during that full moon is that he does not want to do any hunting activities really close to a roost or the feeding area, where these birds are at during the day or at nighttime, where they're feeding at night or where they're roosting during the day. He tries to stay away from those areas as much as possible and then just put himself, kind of try to put him right in the middle of it all. Again, trying to catch those birds moving from point A to point B. And anybody that's hunted down a Tony's or that knows Tony, I mean, running traffic is his MO, right? I mean, that's what they do so much of, and they're really good at it. But when it's full moon, being really, really cautious about not getting close to that rooster, that feed, because that will move birds out.

Chris Jennings: That kind of leads into the next tip, which is from Tony as well, um, which is an interesting, you know, it's something that this is also something, the late season tactic that almost every hunter uses, but Tony kind of has his own little twist on it, obviously. Um, it's hunting the freeze and the thaw, you know, uh, that's all, hunting the thaw is like the big theme, you know, here people basically screaming about it around this area. When we do get ice on the thaw, it gets really good. But, you know, hunting the freeze and the thaw, and it sounds like Tony is really kind of explaining how he manages that pressure during that time as well. Go ahead and explain that one.

John Pullman: Yeah. So again, it kind of falls along with the full moon, but hunting pressure during a freeze, right? You don't want to give those birds any excuse, any reason, any pressure to leave. If they are willing to hang out in an area after a big drop in temperatures, do everything you can to keep them there. Because I think the way that Tony put it, which was awesome, is that you can run ice eaters and you can run wells and you can run water and create a hole in the ice and create some open water for a hunting area. But all of that pales in comparison to 10 or $15,000 sitting on the water and pumping their orange feet underneath and keeping that water open, right? You can't compete with that. And so if you take that away from them, if you hunt too close, if you put pressure on that roost at all during a cold snap, those birds are going to up and leave and then that water freezes over and it's not going to come back. It just won't come back until you have a major warm up. And so he's really mindful of where he hunts when it's cold, staying away from the roost and keeping as far away just so he can keep those birds there. In the actual hunting itself, he's hunting a really, really short window, again, to minimize that pressure. And so birds tend to leave during the warmest part of the day. And they want to stay on that water to keep it open as long as they can. And when the temps reach the apex, wherever that is for the day, then they're going to hop out. They're going to hit the corn or whatever to try to grab some food. And so he's just going to target that one small window, again, to stay out of the field, to give those birds a chance to get something to eat, to rest. And he'll target them for a small window and then get out of there. Again, not hunting to sundown. Give those birds a chance. You may not end up shooting as many per day, but in the big picture, those birds are gonna hang out so that when that thaw does happen, you can take advantage of it, right? And then you can lay the coals to them again and put the herd on. But until then, you really gotta manage that pressure.

Chris Jennings: Yeah, I hear a lot of people talk about that in these times of… Not necessarily severe weather, but you know, when ice, the big freeze is coming, some guys are doing some midday hunts and that's what sounds like Tony's doing. He's spending probably an hour, hour and a half in the blind, midday hunt, shoot a handful of ducks, get out, don't pressure them too much. Um, you know, we've done that several times in Arkansas trying to, you know, get in and get out without disturbing, you know, as many ducks as we, you know, try and basically just keep a low profile out there. I mean, that's what it's about.

John Pullman: And that's, again, it's something that's transferable to wherever you are, right? Coast to coast, north to south, east to west, it doesn't matter. Honestly, you're hunting smart, right? Being smart about it, knowing you're maybe not going to pile them up. You might pile them up one day, right? But then they're gone the next one. But so if you are patient with it and you don't get too greedy with things, you could stretch things out until some more favorable weather patterns emerge and then you can get after them again.

Chris Jennings: Yeah. Now, so your next tip is, uh, from Rusty Creasy, uh, there at the Coca-Cola Boots. And we just had Rusty on, I don't know, a couple months ago, uh, really before the season started, kind of talked about some of his habitat management that he does, which was fun. But he is, what he's describing here, and he's primarily hunting flooded timber, uh, which is unique, but also the tip itself is, kind of lends itself to anywhere in the country, but looking for ducks in hidden places. So these ducks are trying to get away.

John Pullman: Yeah, I love talking to Rusty about this one. He has a way of describing it. you can just picture it, right? He's talking about, basically, if you late season, if you're duck hole and you're duck spread and it looks like a duck hole and duck spread, chances are you're not going to be shooting any ducks. So he is going into the woods and he is finding these blowdowns and these areas that have some overhead cover where these birds feel they're out of the way, they feel safe, they're getting some food, they're getting some rest, but it does not look like a typical a typical duck hole situation. And so he's keeping an eye out for, as the season progresses, watching these birds. And when they start to avoid the traditional areas, he's going out and finding them. and these just little, little, little holes in the trees that they're dropping through. And if they find a spot that they want to get to, they're going to get there. And that's what Rusty's doing. He's finding just these little off spots that are out of the way, no one's paying attention to them, these birds have found them, and he's taking advantage of that sense of security, right? And so Rusty's pretty good at it, I think, too.

Chris Jennings: Yeah. And I, I like, you know, the way that he kind of describes, you know, you kind of look at some of these areas and you're like, there's no way a flock of mallards can get in here through these trees. Um, but he mentions like, if they want to, they will. And I've seen that firsthand, you know, hunting some of the public areas there in Arkansas, um, later in the season. And you're hunting an area where you kind of look up and you're like, I can't even, there's no hole here. But then you turn around and there's ducks just pouring through the trees. And they're getting in. They can get in. You know, you're not able to see exactly what they're looking at as they're finding these holes. But that's a pretty good tip, like you mentioned. Even for someone who's not hunting timber necessarily, you know, trying to find these holes where ducks are just trying to get away. They're trying to get into these secluded, whether it's a buck brush slew or even like a cattail slew that's open with a spring or something where, you know, you wouldn't typically hunt, but that's where these ducks are trying to get into. And they're, and they're doing that for their, for their own good. You just have to try and figure out where those places are.

John Pullman: Mike, I've had conversations with Luke Naylor with Arkansas Game Fish, you know, and in their aerial surveys, Arkansas in December. you know, just his surprise at where they're finding them, right? The where they're seeing these birds and how they react to pressure. And, you know, you wouldn't think a mallard duck could make it that hard, but they can, you know? And so it's one of those things that if you want to have some success late in the year, it takes a little extra work to find these spots. You know, one of the things that Rusty says though, you know, kind of a word of caution is that in some of these areas, especially in flooded timber, but it works in other places too, being mindful of the wind direction. and that there are certain days where that hole is going to hunt best. There are certain days where it takes a certain wind direction maybe for the birds to access it at all. In my case up here in South Dakota, wind direction, if these birds are coming from a certain roost or they're coming from a close roost or in a bad wind direction is going to spook the roost, things like that, being really mindful to hold off on hunting it until you get the right conditions. and then take advantage of it, right? And so, just kind of another little point that he has that I think, again, is applicable to waterfowl hunters across the country.

Chris Jennings: Yeah, absolutely. The next tip you have is follow rising and falling water. Now, this is, again, you know, this can go all across the board. I mean, Any change in water depth on some of these, even just, you know, agricultural fields can make a huge difference. But, you know, the flooded, you know, any kind of floodplain habitat, whether it's timber, anything like that, this rising and falling water can make the difference. And you really have to keep your eye on that. And that's what the guys who are really successful hunting, especially, you know, some of the big public grounds in Arkansas where I'm, you know, and other states, I prefer to Arkansas because I'm over there more. Uh, but you know, any state, any of these guys who are really good at hunting, uh, river systems, things like that, their apps on their phones are watching water level all season long. So exactly, you know, kind of get into the tip that you had there, which I think will really describe a good tip for all across the country.

John Pullman: Yeah. So, you know, Russ, you talked about water on the rise and on the fall, like you mentioned, and that. those ducks will be right on the edge of that, right? Because they have the ability to move to find the exact conditions that they want, right? They don't have to go to the same buffet line every single day. They are going to follow that water. So it's freshly flooded. And I'm assuming a duck is thinking there's fresh water on that. Nobody else has been in there grabbing at the acorns underneath or whatever kind of food resources are there. They're going to be there to be the first ones to take advantage of that, right? And so he is watching that water level on his farm, in Coquitlam Woods where he's at, watching that water level and he's going to follow it. And just because birds were here one day, if he knows that water level is changing, he may modify his location to take advantage of those birds attacking that fresh water line. And then the opposite is true too, right? That as the water falls, those birds are going to stay on the edge of that. And it may be something where it's day to day. This is a little outside of my wheelhouse. We don't have a lot of flooded timber in South Dakota. We do deal with some floodwaters from time to time. And you will notice that, I guess, when I have, that as that water falls out, those birds are on the move, right? You know, in Rusty's tip, he just talks about, you know, water goes out of the woods one day and your mallards are going to follow that water downstream until it finally bottoms out, right? And then they may come back to more traditional areas, but until it does, until that water is back in the banks, you know, those ducks are going to follow that all the way downstream. And so, again, it means you have to modify if you can, if you can move locations to do so, or be patient until it does go back into the banks. And then, like you said, those ducks may come back to utilize some more traditional resources, but ducks love change. They love that new water. They love those new food resources. And again, I think it's about survival. It's about, they know that they can access food to put on some pounds to make it through the winter and to get back to the breeding grounds. And so they are going to be on top of it as soon as they can. And so, like Rusty says, you yourself have to stay on top of it, too, to be able to follow them and find them.

Chris Jennings: Yeah, and I think that's a good point. And one of the overarching themes with almost all of these tips kind of relays back to scouting. You have to know what the water is. You have to know where these ducks are on the moon. You have to know where they're sitting for that freeze and the thaw. I mean, having that knowledge is key. And so I think that's a good thing just kind of to add in. All of this has to do with being able to observe these birds, you know, scouting, spending the time, know what they're doing and what they're not doing, really. So, you know, that's just one thing I wanted to add. But also, before we get you out of here, I wanted to see, you know, we talked about some of these tips. But I really wanted to see South Dakota. There's a lot of hunters up there. Late season South Dakota where you're at, right in your backyard. What's your go-to late season tip?

John Pullman: I think this is going to be odd. There's a number of them, but the one that I would say is probably sleep in and have breakfast. Because late season here, and when I'm talking late season for me, it's primarily, we're talking field feeding mallards. That's for a late season hunt. It's probably one of the more popular options that we have here in the state. But late season, there is a tipping point in our temperature, our overnight temperature, where those ducks will abandon a morning feed and they will go to a afternoon feed only. And those are the most glorious days because they mean that you can sleep in and you can go have some breakfast and you can stroll out to the field at 10, 11, 12 o'clock, get things set up. and then it's showtime in the afternoon. My favorite thing is mallards over the water, but a close second is a November, December, late season, sunny sky, bluebird day, cold temp, little breeze, cornfield mallards. It is a thing of beauty. And so that's probably my big thing, is to watch those temperatures. And no, there is absolutely zero reason, if you had an overnight low of nine degrees or 12 degrees and these birds are on some open water, they are probably not, there's a 99% chance they are not coming out to feed at sunrise. And sleep in, take advantage of it and hit them in the afternoon because that's when they're going to be out there.

Chris Jennings: Nice. I like that. I like that tip. That's perfect. Catch a little, catch a little breakfast or maybe some extra sleep and, uh, you know, shoot the midday or late afternoon, however you want to do it. That's, that's a pretty good one, John. Well, John, this has been great. I think we've covered a lot of late season tactics for people. And, and I think some of our listeners can kind of assume or maybe, you know, spin off some of these, even though, you know, some of them may be a little regional, they do, they are applicable all across the board and all across the country. So. It's been fantastic and we'll have to get you back on here real soon, John. Sounds good. Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it. I'd like to thank my guest, John Pullman, the contributor of Ducks Unlimited Magazine and ducks.org for bringing to light some of these late season tips for hunters to use as the temperatures drop and winter really kind of sinks in throughout the country. I'd like to thank Chris Isaac, our producer, for putting the show together and getting it out to you. And I'd like to thank you, the listener, for joining us on the DU Podcast and supporting wetlands conservation.