Ducks Unlimited Podcast

Katie Burke: Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. We are actually in Easton, Maryland at the Waterfowl Festival. And though I have known this guest for a while, we actually get some time to do this in person. So today on this show, I have Logan Webster, founder of Camo Retro. Welcome to the show. Good afternoon. Yeah. So I love it when I get to do this in person. It's way better. So, and you're busy guys, so this, this helps. So kind of how I like to start is I kind of like to start with your background and not just what you do, but in the outdoors in general. So like all the way back to being a little kid getting introduced to the outdoors. So how did that start for you? And when did that love for the outdoors and waterfowl kind of begin?
Logan Webster: Yeah. I mean, I got to admit, I didn't have the appreciation for it as a kid that I do now. Yeah. That's certainly true because I grew up in it and I was pretty spoiled in that way. I feel you. And that, you know, I can thank my mentors growing up for that. My dad, obviously a big part of that, and my uncles as well, and those who are as close as family. Former Arkansas Game and Fish Commissioner Lester Seitz is one of those. I consider him as close as family. So I can't not be thankful for those individuals that have steered me in that direction. So growing up in the woods and just this today is actually the first deer season, opening day of deer season, I've missed in Arkansas in my entire life.

Katie Burke: Oh, wow.

Logan Webster: Yeah. I'm across the country, so it feels a little it feels a little weird calling in and getting an update from friends and family in the woods back home.

Katie Burke: Nobody killed anything real big, did they? No, no.

Logan Webster: They're just hiding it from me. Yeah, hiding it from me. It's weird, all my game cams are offline right now. Cell service, they just completely… I guess they took all the batteries out of them. There's something they don't want me to see. But I grew up in the woods with certainly it being a lifestyle there in Arkansas, southwest Arkansas. and went on to school, University of Arkansas for college and spent time up there. I thought I was going to go into working collegiate athletics and then I realized that is the worst profession on earth to go into if you ever care about duck hunting because college football and duck hunting, while you can enjoy them both in the same day from the comfort of your couch and cabin. If you want to work in that field, you better not enjoy duck hunting. That's probably the least I've ever hunted in my life was when I was working. Working in college for Razorback Athletics and attending college, the two of those things.

Katie Burke: Yeah, and you didn't go straight into this. Where did your career go first before you started CameraRetro?

Logan Webster: CameraRetro, yeah. So, I worked full-time for the university when I was there, between the chancellor's office and Razorback Athletics. Coming out of college, I worked two summers for the United States Senate.

Katie Burke: In D.C. or in Arkansas? D.C.

Logan Webster: for then-Senator Mark Pryor.

Katie Burke: Okay, so that's very different as well.

Logan Webster: That was different. And from that I rolled into working corporate America. So I worked for Tyson Foods doing public relations and a sort of mix of things there.

Katie Burke: So how did Camera Retro develop and when were you like, oh, this is something I can do? So people who don't know about Camo Retro, the best way I can say is like, it's like, if you know what Poshmark is or that sort of thing, like thread up some sort of clothing resale, but it's Camo. So when, yeah, how did that develop and when did you think like, oh my God, this is actually going to be… a lucrative choice.

Logan Webster: Well, it wasn't by no means a fiscal endeavor. That's not where it was. And I've always had my side hustles. If you knew me in college, freshman year, I was known as the guy that was fixing everybody's iPhone. You would just slide it under the door to my dorm room and my roommates knew to put it in a box and I'd fix the screen and then somebody would be about to pick it up the next day. Went on to doing restoration of condos and apartments in northwest Arkansas with Walt and I've always had something going on on the side I guess that's just how I'm wired which growing up on a farm, grew up on a chicken farm, cattle farm in southwest Arkansas and there was always worked to do. And I guess I just always needed that. But it's funny because Camo Retro is probably the first side thing that I started that wasn't like, okay, this is just some, this is a gig, this is some side income. I'll take it back to being a kid and growing up in the woods with dad. And I remember wearing his coveralls, his hand-me-downs. and the coveralls would just get, the legs and the arms were rolled up and every year you just roll it down, you take it off the hanger and you just roll it down a little bit further until one day you magically fit in them. And so the clothing aspect, you know it goes that far back. I've got a photo that I can show you of me coming from straight off the deer stand to a pine car derby, head to toe Mossy Oak breakup, just got off the deer stand and won the pine car derby. I'm sitting there just camo and then pine car derby trophies. So there's a lot of those memories going back. And dad just really enjoyed buying camouflage, apparently. Without knowing it, I grew up in a bit of a museum for camouflage. It's funny because he is not picky at all. He never matched camos. It was basically convenience, whatever was the closest. Even to this day, I'm talking like this was years ago.

Katie Burke: Still happening.

Logan Webster: I know he just looked at, okay, there's a shirt, there's some pants, we're good to go. As long as, you know, it's not bright green in the fall, he's not very picky. But he, to this day, and I need to go on the record saying this, not a single stitch of my dad's clothing has ever been sold on my website. He does not, Sell? No, never. That is not him. So for me, finding inventory in the beginning was tough when I decided to go to a marketplace, but I'll get to that in a second. But without knowing it, I grew up in a museum of camouflage, essentially, and I could look at camo patterns. It wasn't something that I thought was unique.

Katie Burke: Yeah. So, like, did your dad, and maybe he didn't even think about it, like, did he just like camo patterns and that's why he bought them? Or just was it more like, oh, this is new, I'll get it.

Logan Webster: This is on sale. I'll get it.

Katie Burke: Okay. Yeah. So he just more of a hoarder of camo than really a collector.

Logan Webster: Yeah. Um, if it wasn't for my mom, we might have a lot more.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I know that.

Logan Webster: In our family, the men are the ones with the clothes buying problem. Now it's all hunting clothes, but, uh, and he's, he's still got stuff up there with the tags on it from however long ago. We had a place called Columbia sewing outlet in Hope. Um, not affiliated with Columbia,

Katie Burke: Right, yes, like I don't think I've heard of it.

Logan Webster: Clothing that we all, you know, like the Omnitech jacket. They did work for them, but this is a completely different entity, so for the purpose of education, don't get the two confused as I talk about it. Columbia Sewing Outlet did the original run of products for McAllister, the brand out of Little Rock. Those original run of products were made in Hope, Arkansas, the wax canvas and stuff. just as an example of the products coming through there. So we would get a lot of stuff from there, I know that. I remember going through there at the end of the season with dad, their little like seconds room basically, and picking up a lot of stuff there. And I just remember seeing the patterns, knowing the names.

Katie Burke: Yeah, it's funny because like I never, I mean I grew up around hunters and I never knew names of anything. I mean, it was all around me, but I just, I didn't even know, I don't think I realized I even had a name. I just like pointed it out, like that's this, you know, and, and I probably had it worse than you when it came to like wearing the big stuff as being a girl. Like, cause then I, I mean, it was big on me forever. So I would always, when I thought of camo, I really would think about it. I was like, this actually will fit me. Like I thought about it that way because it was such a pain. So yeah, it's funny the way what you pick up on and what you don't pick up on. Right. Yeah, and it's that's interesting that you pick that up.

Logan Webster: And I've had a friend at one point tell me, he's like, it's really weird that you know just all these camouflage patterns. It's not weird.

Katie Burke: It's not weird. We are in Easton, Maryland, and you have seen decoy collector after random artifact collector, and they can all tell you some random information.

Logan Webster: They can, and I've had the pleasure to talk to a few of them, and I have to look up her name because she was such a pleasure to talk to. Rosemary, and forgive me, Rosemary, I cannot remember your last name right now, and the picture I took of your name tag is too blurry, but I was talking to her just about the show and her and her husband's history here and in this area, Rich history, obviously. You and I were touching on that with somebody else about how further back everything goes here than the Mississippi Flyway. And we were talking about just… I brought up my website and stuff and she said, oh, buy and sell. There's a whole room in the gymnasium where they're doing that stuff. And I said, oh, does anybody have any clothes? And she looked at me, clothes, like jackets and stuff. And she said, to buy? Yeah, she said, oh, I don't think so. I was like, well, that's what I collect is hunting clothes. And she looked at me like I was insane.

Katie Burke: But it's really funny. Yeah.

Logan Webster: I guess that's just my corner.

Katie Burke: Yeah, no, you are. And I wonder, like, I think it might be and tell me what you think about this. I think it might be generational. I think, because if you think about it, so you can tell me exactly when camo really started to happen, but we'll get into that. But I think it was later. And this generation that, I mean, the collecting generation, I mean, 50 is young, right? they are looking at old decoys, they're looking at old shotguns, they're looking at calls, you know, that goes, because that goes, that history goes even farther back than camo, right? I mean, you had like wax clothing and stuff then, but they didn't really have camo patterns. So for us, like, I guess, millennial generation, the camo patterns are nostalgic to us. Like, we were, there weren't wooden decoys, especially in the Mississippi Flyaway. There were no wooden decoys to see being hunted over. It was just plastic. And that doesn't quite have the same nostalgic. I just don't think it holds that.

Logan Webster: I had that exact conversation with the gentleman earlier.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I don't think it holds the same nostalgia for me as actually the hunting patterns. That, I see a hunting pattern and I can see my dad in 1988 coming back from turkey hunting. That has some power for me in our generation. So I think that's why you're not seeing. I think you've kind of, it's obvious that you've kind of hit on something that people haven't. It's like new. You've hit on a new thing to collect, a new thing to be kind of whole deer.

Logan Webster: Yeah, well, I completely stumbled into it. It wasn't something I set out to do necessarily. And even my dad, my dad's pretty, I don't know if he knows exactly the patterns by name, but he can look at a pattern from across the room and make a friend. Like, I'm gonna go talk to that guy, he's wearing camouflage. Or it's that he'd point out a vest or a jacket and say, my buddy Joey from college had that same vest and here's the hunt that we went on. And that's the story that was locked away for him until he saw that vest and thought of that moment. And those are the stories that I perked up at at age 26 or so. Okay. And thought, well, you know, these are the stories that my mentors have to tell, Uncle Randy, Uncle Rodney, my dad, what are the stories that their gear has to tell. And so I took, I started asking them, hey, that Uncle Randy, that hat you always wear, tell me about it. How long have you had it? It looks like it got shot once upon a time. What's this rip on the side? You know, those are questions to ask anybody. And I encourage anybody listening to this, ask your mentor in the outdoors or somebody that you really look up to. If you notice a little cut or scrape or something on a, jacket or even just ask about the jacket itself. Who gave it to you? Did you buy it yourself? Did you have to save every penny working some summer to have it? What's the story that your gear has to tell? And that's where Camo Retro was born initially. And it was a blog series. I talked about a few items in retrospect. Kind of a retrospective gear review overlaid with here's the stories that Uncle Randy had to tell about his hat.

Katie Burke: And that was for me.

Logan Webster: That wasn't for any… That was… I wrote… I put all that on paper for me. And that was just sometimes over the course of an entire hunting season, just asking the right questions and jotting them down. And the original site was just a blog site. It wasn't e-commerce. And that took off fairly well and people loved hearing the stories or the feedback I got. And when I say it took off, I mean, somebody actually responded to one of them. I got an email that it could have been as little as that. It's hard to think back on it right now. I took a step back after putting those out there, because that took, like I said, an entire season to come up with one thing, to write about enough for people to read. And I took a step back and said, okay, what am I doing this for? If this goes further, And this was all while I was working corporate in America as well, mind you. If I take this further, what does that look like? Why am I doing it? And I just unlocked a whole new chapter of storytelling from people that I'd been hearing the same stories from all my life. And I love those stories, but to discover something new was really special to me. Now, is that why I'm doing this at this point? Well, I took pen to paper and wrote down some things. The first one was that I landed on, I'm doing this to elevate an awareness and appreciation for legacy and heritage goods and the stories those goods have to tell. And I took a step back further and said, okay, telling these stories, if I started sharing other people's stories or sourcing stories, that kind of thing. And the storytelling aspect is something I am fervently trying to get back to.

Katie Burke: I have a question about that. Yeah, absolutely.

Logan Webster: So we'll get back to it. I was like, well, let's take it, let's elevate that a little bit. And can I give people the chance to own this stuff, own a piece of that heritage and legacy? And what does that look like? Well, that's a marketplace. That's where I started sourcing stuff to sell myself. And that was me, Logan Webster, the first seller on the site. But that's when it was just me selling to everybody. And then I realized that only went so far, that only scaled so much. There's only so much I could do, especially working a full-time corporate job. I was actually recovering from tonsillitis. I couldn't talk for six weeks. Oh, wow. I was 20 at that time, I think 28, 27, 28. And I learned how to build a C2C marketplace website. So that's one where you, Katie, can go on the site, make an account, list your stuff on Camo Retro. Right. And the site takes a commission when you sell something. That's when it transformed that. And that was 2019 when that transition happened.

Katie Burke: Did COVID make it blow up?

Logan Webster: COVID was definitely a… I assume with that, like, yeah. Can't not thank COVID for some of it.

Katie Burke: I was like, that's really good timing to start something like that. People are wanting to do things. They end up having some money, oddly. Some people did. Yeah, I would think that would blow it up.

Logan Webster: And the time to pay attention to it as well. And also looking in… I talk about closets and cabins full of this stuff, and the chance to dig into there, and some really cool things were unearthed.

Katie Burke: I mean, I know there was a lot of… It wasn't everybody's favorite time, but there were some corners… No, it did… It benefited quite a few things in the waterfowling world. Decoy collecting made a huge jump for, like what you said, the time to go online and look at these things. Pay attention. They were bored. So it gave us something to do.

Logan Webster: Well, you're literally staring at, you know, staring at whatever storage bin or closet or even just the decoy that's up on the shelf that you've been like, one of these days I'm going to look into that. And I guess you finally had the time to do that.

Katie Burke: Yeah, so that makes, it makes perfect sense. And I didn't realize that's when you started. I knew that's kind of about the time I became aware of you, but that makes sense that, yeah, you would have blown up then.

Logan Webster: And then the other two parts, just real quickly, were to increase accessibility to goods in the industry. Whether that's old or new. Old giving you the chance to own a piece of heritage and legacy just like everybody's doing here with the decoy stuff.

Katie Burke: Wasn't before you, I guess most people would get off eBay?

Logan Webster: Yes, I still do. I mean, I'm aware that other marketplaces still exist.

Katie Burke: Yeah, of course. But I would think, and I say this with like collectors too, like there's always that chance with eBay, like that you're not getting what you're paying, what you think you're getting. And that's always kind of the risk of doing it through eBay. And that's fine. eBay is a great place and they have these opportunities, but if you're wanting authentic, you have to run, you know, you've got somewhat of a risk when you go those routes.

Logan Webster: Absolutely, and luckily counterfeit vintage hunting apparel is not a very common thing.

Katie Burke: No, it's mostly just hats, right? I'm guessing that would be the majority.

Logan Webster: Even then, like you have to basically fake, there's so much you have to fake. The stitching, I mean it is incredibly hard.

Katie Burke: It's mostly just like logo thief, right?

Logan Webster: Logo, yeah, branding thief, that kind of stuff, but I mean I can tell you if I'm pretty confident in telling you what something is, when it's from. And there's others I can reach out to if I'm not your guy. There's a pretty good, cool community. It's not really formalized in any way. Somebody's probably gonna listen to this podcast and do that.

Katie Burke: That's fine. That's their torch to carry.

Logan Webster: But it is a niche marketplace. It is that. And it's very hands-on with the transactions. So it is 100% scam-free. And if you want to challenge me on that, I'm happy to have a conversation with you. But you do not get paid on my site until you've delivered your item to the customer. And they've had three days to look at it after it's been delivered. And that's when payment processes. And being a niche marketplace is beneficial to the customer because they are looking on a marketplace that is fine-tuned to exactly what they're looking for.

Katie Burke: It's not digging through a million different things.

Logan Webster: The joke on eBay is you type in camo, camouflage anything and you're going to get served ads for flip-flops. Like that's, so there's none of that noise.

Katie Burke: Like you put in duck and you get mostly Donald Duck.

Logan Webster: Yeah, exactly. So it's a niche marketplace for the customer. It's a fine-tuned marketplace for the seller. You benefit off of that because the customer is paying for convenience. And they are willing to pay a premium for that convenience. Now sell stuff for whatever it makes sense for you. And certainly don't, this is not me now, nor will I ever advocate for anybody selling grandpa's jacket.

Katie Burke: Yeah, you're right. No, but if you find or come across things in thrift stores and you want to sell it, and get it out to help get it out there. Absolutely.

Logan Webster: And that's, that's, that is that second part is increasing accessibility to it. help letting somebody first learn about it, the elevating awareness and appreciation, and then own a piece of it. And whether that's new or old stuff. So for somebody looking for that vintage piece that reminds them of their mentor that's since passed on, and who knows what happened to the jacket or the hat. It might be the new hunter who the barrier for entry for them to hunt for the first time is getting higher and higher. Yeah, buying and buying a functional jacket that's stood the test of time, they can get it for a lower price point on the site. So increasing accessibility is true in that way too. And it's not necessarily the vintage aspect of it from a collector's side. It's just getting into the industry. And maybe not that person, but maybe the generation after them that inherits that same jacket. Maybe they're the next champion in conservation. And if it wasn't for buying That jacket, once upon a time, off Camo Retro, that chapter may have never unfolded in that way.

Katie Burke: It's true, yeah. You never know. I think the interesting thing that just having this conversation with you is like, what you clung to versus what I clung to is not the same thing, but we kind of got in the same direction. And you never know what that spark is going to be for somebody. And when it comes to recruiting and retaining hunters and conservationists, throw everything at the wall. Get that spark. We talk about this a lot on here. I think there's a carver who's a good friend of mine, Cameron McIntyre, he's a modern carver. He mentioned this one time and it stuck with me. It's getting someone to that point, but that time in the morning, before you're shooting, but when you're sitting in the marsh and the ducks are coming in and the sun is coming up and it's just quiet and magical, it's hard to get someone there, right? But if you can get someone there, I don't think there's a person out there that cannot appreciate that moment. It's, it's, there's no words for it. It's just magical. And then that's what hooks us. It's not shooting ducks. It's sitting there and seeing all that. And yeah, like what you said, like you don't know what that spark's going to be, what's going to get them going. And yeah, throw everything at it.

Logan Webster: And it's that moment, nirvana we'll call it, is much more enjoyed when you're not wet and cold. Exactly.

Katie Burke: You're in nice gear that you like spend some time in. And you know, I was thinking about that too. Like my dad was not a picky camo guy. He never has been. He doesn't match either. Maybe he does for turkey hunting. But that's more because he's more serious. He thinks about it that way.

Logan Webster: You brought up a good point with going to thrift stores and stuff. That's something I encourage people to do. If you find something that's not your size, not your style, still pick it up and find somebody who would have a use for it. Now if you so choose to use CamoRetro.com as a place to list your stuff, Fantastic. That's obviously my, you know, pitch for myself, but I am a resource. Reach out on Instagram, through our email. There's emails all over the website. Reach out to me if you happen to find somebody who has my phone number, feel free to text me. Saturday mornings for me are responding to a lot of people who are out thrift shopping, estate sales, garage sales, what have you.

Katie Burke: I see my estate sales a lot.

Logan Webster: So feel free to reach out and I'm happy to guide you in the right direction or tell you what it is. And if you're raiding the family cabin closet to definitely seek out those stories attached to that gear. And if you're on the fence about deciding to sell something or not through whatever means, trade it to somebody. or even just to hand it down, try to find the stories attached to that gear. And if it doesn't have a story to tell, me personally, that's the stuff that I'm more soon to give up, is if I don't have a story to tell for it and I haven't worn it in a season, it's probably going to go.

Katie Burke: Could be really comfortable though. Yeah, well, it could be.

Logan Webster: I just, I can let go of things. It's therapeutic for me. Now that is, the person saying that is also the person that has hundreds of pieces of inventory for the website that I can pull off at any time. So I realize I'm saying it with saying that too. But I think, oh, and then the third part of why I'm doing this was to reinvest in the industry. And the way that happens is, There's so much unrealized cash flow in the industry from stuff that is sitting in, again, those cabins and closets and rotting, more or less. And so to bring that stuff out of, you know, we'll call it retirement, get it out there into the economy of this industry. Well, that's cash back in the seller's pocket that wasn't there before that they might turn around and spend on, help spend on dog training, buy a new set of decoys, a call. And I realize we're talking about ducks here.

Katie Burke: It doesn't matter.

Logan Webster: But anywhere in the industry, it's a way to reinvest in that way. And so that's really, that's how I look at it. That's the purpose that it serves and the value that it brings to the industry, in my mind. That's where I'm coming from.

Katie Burke: I agree with that. Let's get back to a question. And you mentioned, I didn't know this about you. And you talked about writing and telling stories. So have you always liked to write and tell stories? Like, is that something? I didn't know that about you. That's something I just learned.

Logan Webster: I worked for my town paper growing up in Nashville, Arkansas. I went to Nashville High School. And I worked for, that's actually a story in and of itself, I won't get too far into it, but imagine a town of 4,600 people with two newspapers. And they were owned by brothers, the same family. It was a really interesting time. And I did work, I was actually, gosh, I wonder who's going to listen to this podcast. I was doing work for both newspapers at the same time and eventually one newspaper said, can we just pay you to only work for us because we want to be the only ones with the story or the photograph at times. That led me to go to college for journalism. That's what my degree is in journalism with a focus on public relations and advertising. Okay. And marketing works its way in there too.

Katie Burke: I mean when you get down that road. Yeah.

Logan Webster: And that's storytelling has always been important to me. It turned more into visual storytelling for me along the way, not so much the written. But I love hearing the stories and I love relaying those stories. And I do. And actually camera retro was an exercise for me to get back into written storytelling that wasn't through the lens of corporate America. I did some.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I do have some more personal

Logan Webster: Yeah, absolutely. And find my own voice again. I spent a lot of time doing ghostwriting and writing blogs on behalf of, well, I shouldn't say that, in corroboration with subject matter experts on behalf of my employer. And it's just not the same. And I needed to… You need that creative outlet.

Katie Burke: Yeah.

Logan Webster: That's yours. That's a great question. And that's the answer. And that is definitely what got Camo Retro

Katie Burke: I think it's interesting in that, because what sparked me into it was that to appreciate history and older things, I think you also have to have a love of stories. I think they kind of go together. It's hard. I feel like a lot of people who aren't, and that could be wrong. I'm just, you know, armchairing this a little bit. But yeah, I think that's, I mean, I'm not a writer. I painted and things like that when I was younger and was always very into art. And that was kind of something, I've been that way since I was a kid. But I've always been really interested in people's stories. And I've always been interested in older people because I thought they had a lot to tell. And I think to get into history, you kind of have to have that love of hearing what people say. And that is a really, what's brought me to museums was this connection that an object can have a story. And that's, I didn't expect that to be your answer earlier, that that's what got you into it, is that the object was what you wanted to hear the object story and how it connected what its thread was through this history, which is really, I get it completely. Like, I really understand that. It's really, I didn't think about that with Camo, but it's true. Like, I think of, yeah, like, there's a hat that my dad had, I can think of it today, and it was his, like, first, He was chairman of his local chapter for DU, and he wore that thing everywhere. Too bad it looks terrible now. He took very bad care of it, but we still have it. And I think of him going out at night to go to those dinners and go to meetings. He was so proud of that hat. He was so proud of that hat. He ended up getting, I think he was chapter of the year. He's such an overachiever, my dad. But yeah, so he did really well. And of course, he's a bragger, so we got to hear all about it as kids. But yeah, I can think about those things. And I can think about my grandfather hunting and the vest he wore. Yeah, and it's hard, the interesting thing that you pull out of it that I got so, in my experience through museums and history and studying, I would look at objects that weren't related to me at all and want to put it through some major part of history that I was interested, be that the Depression or something like that. And I never really think about it in terms of my own history. And that's unique. I like that you've thought, you've actually thought about that and that's how you got into it. And that's an interesting way of looking at it. Yeah. So, okay, so I guess to make a question out of that long dialogue, could you, because I've never read any, can you tell me a story that you love?

Logan Webster: Yeah, so the first blog I ever wrote was basically was my dad's jacket, but it was the Columbia Omnitech jacket. The three-in-one. I mean, a pretty innovative piece. You had Bob Allen and 10X and some others that had made very similar jackets before, but Columbia just hit the nail on the head with that jacket. And I know there's going to be a lot of people nodding their head listening to this. I do have to say that telling stories about these products, no matter what brand or manufacturer I mention, I'm standing on the shoulders of the products and brands that these people have built. I have nothing to do with the success and the functionality of a lot of those products.

Katie Burke: No, you're just sort of appreciated. Yeah, absolutely.

Logan Webster: So I just, I do feel the need to say that because I'm not sitting here telling you how great this jacket is that I had something to do with it. This is a jacket that my dad wore that was given him before I was even born. But a Columbia Omnitech tree stand jacket that my dad had. And I did remember when dad told me this story, I remembered him telling me the story that he jumped out of the duck blind. It was a jacket that he and his two brother-in-laws, my uncles, all got from my grandmother one year for Christmas. That was their big gift to the men in the family. And dad one time hopped out of a duck blind and a nail caught it all the way down the back. And after he told me this, I remembered him coming home from hunting that day and being so mad about his jacket getting torn. And I remember him trying, you know, wondering if he could get it fixed or whatever. And he called Columbia because they had the lifetime warranty on their items back then and said, I need a new jacket. And well, this was, the year was 2006. So the tree stand Omnitech was no longer a jacket. So I need my jacket replaced. And they said, well, you're not going to send me the one? No, I need, I want the jacket just like this. They said, sir, we haven't had a licensing agreement with Masiok in years. And so he, they did end up sending him another jacket. It wasn't the same, obviously, and it's hanging up with the tag still on it and are upstairs. But dad did get the jacket. fixed, mended, and still wears it to this day. But I remembered him coming home so mad about that jacket being ripped torn. I could sit around and tell stories all day.

Katie Burke: I like how he wanted to get the original.

Logan Webster: Yeah, and it's just not how it works. We don't have those sitting around. My dad is so funny, and this is totally off topic, but he would go to yard sales and estate sales, garage sales, or just pawn shops and get all the craftsman tools that were all beat up and send them in to craftsmen to get the new ones. And that's not a thing anymore, mostly thanks to people like him. But he, if something said lifetime warranty, he made sure he cashed in on it. He was gonna make sure they meant what they said. So you were talking about your dad's DU hat. And I gotta say that is something I've come to have such an appreciation for are the weird quirky things, the camouflage patterns that came out just so odd. It's clearly a copycat of two or three different ones, and it's super hyper-specific to a region. There's this one pattern up from the northwest called Piney Woods, and it's not the most obscure pattern, but it is a regional pattern. and just discovering patterns like that that are just off the wall and a little different. It's basically bottom land with pine needles. That's what it looks like. It's an old pattern. It's nothing new. And just finding those funky, quirky things that have stories to tell. I think the best example of that across the board are all the Ducks Unlimited chapters that go rogue and make their own.

Katie Burke: Yes, that's a whole… So it's funny. And I'll give Tommy Harden a shout out, our creative director. But yeah, he fights it all the time. And he's like, you know, we have to, you know, he's like in charge of our duck head. You know, it's like, he's the keeper of the duck head. And he, but you know, we also, because it's a history, right? Like create these chapters going rogue and creating their own hats and merchandise.

Logan Webster: Their mother-in-law has an embroidery machine.

Katie Burke: They'll make it happen. They make it happen. I don't need Ducks Unlimited's permission. He can't completely. So he has to, because it's interesting. So we don't, We won't stop it, right? Like we're not going to tell these chapters that they can't make these special things because they love them and that would be kind of cruel to stop. Volunteers. Yes, they're volunteers. They do great things for us. But he has to like kind of weigh that balance of like, okay, that one's fine. know about this.

Logan Webster: Yeah, it at least merits a conversation.

Katie Burke: But he does let it go for the most part.

Logan Webster: One that I've never sought him out for an answer on this. I've had some conversations with him that are pretty enlightening. What was the Snoopy

Katie Burke: I don't even know what that is.

Logan Webster: There's a run of hats that have, it's not Snoopy actually, it's like discount, greater value Snoopy, even complete with a little bird, but that, anyways, I need to ask.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I need to ask about that, I don't know that one.

Logan Webster: From what I take, and this is just me looking at it through the lens of the merchandise I've seen, golf fundraisers were a huge thing at one point.

Katie Burke: Yeah, regionally, depending on where you were, but yes. And they've gone in and out, like people will go back to them and do them again.

Logan Webster: Yeah. Our chapter did one this spring, I just, across the board with, it's curious too how I know that just from looking at the merch specifically.

Katie Burke: I have a question that I don't know, maybe you can answer, maybe you can't, but I was just thinking about it when I was coming over here to meet you and you know what I was doing, so you have an exhibit with us right now in the museum, we should probably mention that, please go see it, that you helped put together of Ducks Limited camo, of our branded camo, some of it's the official branded camo, we have some non-official branded camo, but and all the hats and things and But anyway, I was when I was doing the some of the research for the tags and I was looking at waterfowl camo, like the history of how like duck camo started, it's It's clear. I can't decide if any of it was really true. Like, I'd get different answers for how, like, Waterfowl Camo started. And it was unclear to me what I should trust and what I shouldn't trust. And I don't know if you have an answer for, like, how Cam— I mean, I could find a basic pretty— I could get enough information that I could put together, like, a really, like, you know, a sentence. But I was a little nervous to ever make any— claims, right? Like I didn't want to make any claims that weren't true. So do you have any idea of how that timeline happens? And like, cause they, I mean, you can get back to like, it went to like from World War II or something. It's like a very, it's kind of all over the place. And it depends on who you talk to.

Logan Webster: It is, and I'll give you the answer I have. And if anybody has a better one, I welcome it. It can be an evolving conversation. You have to define camouflage, first of all. So the earliest camouflage is what we see on the animals around us. That's the earliest record of camouflage. Now, taking that to obviously the clothing that we wear, the red flannel, what is, has been called buffalo camo. Just the, I think you're Woolrich. Big checkerboard. That was developed to break up a pattern of somebody in the woods. So, that could be defined as the first camouflage for people hunting. Now the first camouflage, you get to military and you start looking at military and that camouflage quote, I'm doing air quotes here, camouflage dates pretty far back. You can find some examples through different conflicts. Your earlier and I'm going to have some military camo buffs come at me from every angle for a lot of this I'm sure.

Katie Burke: If you have an answer, please, we'll have a fact check.

Logan Webster: Splinter camo from Germany. You've got Allied forces using camo in the Second War. Towards the end of it, Korean War and Vietnam obviously had a lot of camouflage. That was the first. Vietnam conflict was the first… All camo. All camo issued camo as I understand it. Okay. Like across the board. So the answer to camo for sportsmen is this. Orvis was the first company to market camouflage for duck hunters. And that was 1969 or thereabouts. I've actually talked to people from Orvis, they relaunched, and this is, I guess, a free plug for Orvis, but they, and I really appreciate them reaching out and having the conversation, because they walked away with me learning more than I think they learned from me, but they relaunched a line, I believe it was last year, called 1916. And that's where that comes from because they were the first ones and I've gone through a ton of old, I love old marketing material for products or even for events. Like I've really enjoyed the different houses and shops and stuff I've been in that have marketing material for this event going back till whenever. Same for Worlds and Stuttgart. They developed that and released and sold that pattern. But they were the first ones to market it. So that's what I, that's my answer. And that's for that marsh frog cloud camo, whatever, old school camo, as it's affectionately called, splotchy camo. Then fast forward to 1979. I hope I'm getting this year correct. It's 74, 79. The way my brain's working right now, it's hard to say both. 79 is when Jim Cromley came out with Tree Bark. And that was the first commercially available camouflage marketed for timber sportsmen. So those are the two, that's the origin of camouflage as we think of it today for both the duck hunter and the timber hunter, or the marsh hunter and the timber hunter, I should say. Not exclusive to ducks, but that's my answer.

Katie Burke: Okay. Yeah, I was wondering, because it's not an easy history to like get.

Logan Webster: Well, anybody could paint a jacket and you could say that was the first one, but if you're looking at it through the lens of which one was available on the market for people to buy, and I think that's a pretty fair definition.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I think so too. Because everything I would look at, I was like, that's not how we think of camo. And I like the marketed camo that you could have gone to Sears or Abercrombie or wherever they were selling Orvis at the time. Abercrombie & Fitch is a great example of a brand.

Logan Webster: Yeah, they started as a hunting brand. Well, actually,

Katie Burke: An outfitter.

Logan Webster: An outfitter, an outfitter. And then, and a lot of companies, Duxback, Duxback's great. I love the Duxback story, how it's gone in and out over time. I don't necessarily love that part of it, but just the history of that company and how they were making wartime goods, lots of uniforms. I mean, you had a lot of that up in Utica, where Duxback is out of. All that being said, the most rewarding part of anything I've done or will do is going to trade shows or being out in the field hunting and hearing the stories that people have to tell about their gear. Not only that, but the lessons I learn about the gear, about the conception of some of the stuff, whether it's a chicken farmer in the backwoods and backwaters telling me their favorite story about a certain camo pattern or it's somebody who is involved in product development and designing the actual camouflage itself that shares with me a story that I can then carry on to the next person who maybe that person designed their favorite product or favorite camo pattern and that is such a cool place to be and that's the most fulfilling part of everything.

Katie Burke: Okay, so then that makes me have another question. So, because you go to all these shows and you come across a lot of people who tell you stories or show you an item. Do you have, is there any one particular that stands out that you remember like meeting someone and them telling your story or showing you an item that you had in mind?

Logan Webster: Oh my gosh, this is… I have so many answers to this question. Like I said, this is my favorite part. I'll try to burn through some. The most memorable experience I've had was a show that really wasn't the most successful show for me, but this young lady comes into the booth and she's like, oh, I love all this, and she's thumbing through. And then my dad, she mentioned that her dad was a big hunter and she's thumbing through and then she gets to a certain jacket on the rack. And I do tell this story often, but she gets to a jacket on the rack and just tears, just waterworks immediately. And I'm standing there with her husband and I'm like, is she okay? And he's like, I don't know what this is about. Then it just comes to him and he says, her dad passed away two weeks ago and that's the jacket that he wore. and her brother got the jacket so that's I guess her jacket like that's and turns out that was the jacket the same jacket in her size so she got the chance to buy that jacket and take it home that day so that's that's that was very special and it's going to be hard to beat that one for you as far as people I mean I've been put in the position to meet so many phenomenal people in this industry and learn about other niche markets too. The call collecting at an event like Kalapalooza and then obviously the decoy world up here. It's just a different, it's different and it's a room that I wouldn't be in otherwise. I talked to one gentleman today who told me the story of when his grandfather came back from the second war and plastic decoys came onto the market. It was so much lighter. And his grandpa, this gentleman, he's an exhibitor here, he bought his first collection from his grandfather. And his grandfather told him, yeah, there used to be a bunch more, but we burned most of them.

Katie Burke: There's so many stories of decoys that were burned.

Logan Webster: Infernacism.

Katie Burke: Yes, it's so… I didn't know this. It is. I've talked to this a couple of times, but it slips to that. I don't even like to think about it. It really upsets me. Well, the same thing.

Logan Webster: What is cheap? When people… I dropped off bags of that stuff. The worst is when they say they threw it away. Bags of old camouflage. But back then it was, and that was a very much a survivalist generation when you're going back that far.

Katie Burke: And wood is cheap, and they'd throw it in, they needed firewood.

Logan Webster: Well, and then they would get the weights out and melt those down to use them for other stuff. So, I mean, there was a means to an end there, and I can respect that.

Katie Burke: But it's heartbreaking. It is. It's heartbreaking, but it happened all over the place. There was a guy I was talking to, I guess it was Thursday night, we did the little VIP thing here where you go around to all the artists, and he was saying, he was when he was, coming down, I think it was in North Carolina, coming down the shore and they had just gone into this like hardware store and he got this perfect haze decoy, like in a canvas, like it was in perfect condition. It was like in a gas station of all places and he was like, yeah, I'll sell it to you. you know, 20 bucks or something stupid. And they went three miles down the road and they looked over and it was a big bonfire. And they looked at the other guys like, that wasn't what I thought that was. And it was all decoys. Just somebody was cleaning out their barn and was like, oh, we'll just throw it all on a fire. Yeah.

Logan Webster: I was hosted on a hunt this morning, first time outside the Mississippi Flyway actually, by a customer of the site that's become a friend, Emery. We were on our way over to the festival this morning, there was a yard sale going on, and I definitely rubbernecked looking back at it, and he said, you want to stop? I was like, anytime I see a yard sale with clothes out, I have to look. sure that if there's any camo, we need to grab it. And it is to preserve that history more than anything. I mean, if I help feed my dogs with it along the way, sure, that's fine, but that's not the point. But to get back to your question, the people, I mean, Toxie Hayes, that's a huge one. Mossy Oak, talking to him. My first big national show that he was at, I had the chance to talk to him. for the first time for about an hour and that time is coveted by me and just the question as you can imagine the questions that I had for him just ready to go and he was he was I think he was a little taken aback like I didn't realize people appreciate this stuff so much Just the corners of things that we, that he had the self-realization, because he'd never really been asked it in a certain kind of way. That was a really special conversation. And then, you know, juxtaposition of that, the Jordan family with Realtree, getting the chance to connect with them at a trade show. It was actually Tyler Jordan that I met originally and he, He sought me out, said, would you mind FaceTiming my dad, Bill Jordan? And I was like, oh, absolutely. I grew up, Monster Bucks was a family staple. I mean, every year, now it's the Avengers movies come out or Marvel movies come out. When I was a kid, it was the new Monster Bucks came out. We actually had to buy them from the pawn shop.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I think we got them at the gun show.

Logan Webster: Yeah, so it was always an event every year when new monster books came out. Dad and I would sit and watch them. It's just hard to beat those conversations and those are definitely people that stand out. But I mean the most special moments are when people rediscover a pattern or something that they'd forgotten about or find a new one that they fall in love with and learn the story behind it. Those are the most special moments.

Katie Burke: Yeah, no, it's interesting that I'm sure you had no, I think about this with my career, but you had no idea this was coming, did you? No, it's so special.

Logan Webster: I'm super thankful for everybody that's been a part of it along the way. And I want to, there's so much more I want to do with it too. And it's, it comes down to time and money, like most things. I'm thankful for anybody that's had a hand in it to date. And if there's ever any way that I can answer a question for anybody listening to this, feel free to reach out.

Katie Burke: I'm happy to have that conversation. Okay, two things. First, I can keep going. We'll wrap it up a little bit. But before I finish wrapping up, so I want to ask you, is there anything we haven't talked about that you'd like to talk about just to our audience, to the DU audience, if there's anything you want to mention?

Logan Webster: I mean, touching on kind of the licensing of the camouflage patterns over the years, I mean, I don't know it too much from DU's perspective, but talking about the history, I mean, we talked about the history of camouflage for sportsmen, but what's that history like from Ducks Unlimited's perspective? I don't know if that's something that you can touch on.

Katie Burke: Yeah, we can talk about it a little bit. I mean, obviously, and you can kind of, you can help me along too, because I'm not the expert. We would need Jeremy or Jimmy on this show. But so, But yeah, you know, it's the Bob Allen, of course, that's our first one, which is… This is a quiz.

Logan Webster: I'm holding up my phone with the list.

Katie Burke: With the Maynard Reese pattern. Now, I have not… I butcher the years. So I'm not even going to… I think that's 76. I think so. Let's see. I would say 70. So that's the first. And then they also did the Rattlers pattern. Yeah, so next would be their Rattlers pattern. And that's Bob Allen too, right? Or it was bought by… Rattlers was… Bob Allen bought Rattlers. Correct. I believe so. Yes. So Rattlers did it, but then later they were bombed. And so from there, I think it goes, I feel like I might be skipping one, but I think from there it goes to Realtree for a while. Yeah. For a while. And there's like three or four official patterns.

Logan Webster: Three.

Katie Burke: Three. And then we go, of course, now our corporate pattern is Masiok and has been for quite some time. And those is probably, I think it's four. It's four for Masiok. That's why I get confused. It's three for Realtree, then four now.

Logan Webster: No, I think what's confusing you, no, I think what's confusing you is the fact that the last one from Realtree is the number four.

Katie Burke: That's probably what it is. So I thought we just had four for… No, it is three. You're right. Yeah. So yeah, it's three for Realtree, which that went all the way up until… Realtree Advantage Classic is the first one.

Logan Webster: Realtree Advantage Wetlands.

Katie Burke: That went through the 90s, right? Early 2000s.

Logan Webster: Advantage Classic. I believe the first Advantage Classic was 94. I think it was 94. And then Realtree, it went from that to Advantage Wetlands. I'm not so confident on the year for Advantage Wetlands.

Katie Burke: I'd say 97-ish. Go to the museum and look at the timeline. I did the research on that one.

Logan Webster: Max 4 would have definitely been a 2000s pattern. And then Mossy Oak Shadowgrass is the first one from Mossy Oak. Now Mossy Oak Shadowgrass original inception was in 96, 97. I know that for a fact. So this would have been a revisiting of that pattern.

Katie Burke: Correct. And it was, yeah, and then they put the logo into it.

Logan Webster: Yes, and then same with what is here listed as OG Bottomland, which was a revisitation of original Bottomland. And right now, Mossy Oak Shadowgrass Habitat.

Katie Burke: Yes, that's the newest one.

Logan Webster: So that's a little bit of what that exhibit captures. And I'm super thankful to you, Katie, and to Ducks Unlimited for the chance to bring that in front of people.

Katie Burke: It was exciting. You know, it was something that my boss actually at the time brought it up, but I find that people, I guess through Camo Retro, we didn't realize the interest in our camo. You know, it's always been something like we just used for events, like a way to raise money for Habitat. And Ducks Limited has always operated in that way. We're like, dollars for Ducks, dollars for Ducks, dollars for Ducks. Like that's, we kind of have operated that. And we really didn't operate, and they've, people on the podcast heard this a thousand times, but you know, until Johnny Morris was like, hey, do y'all want a museum in Memphis? We didn't think about our history at all. And then now we wake up and we're in our 80-something year. I can't even remember right now, like 86th or 87th year. And yeah, we have a history and people care about it. And that history is extremely tied to waterfowling in this country. And so, you know, and then when you came out with Camo Retro, like, oh, I bet people care about the camo that's had our logo on it and our name on it. So and it's been well received. The chapters, of course, the hats of people love those. I think they really just see a connection. You know, they find a connection to that. It means something to them. But yeah, so yes, please come to the museum and see it or give me a call and we'll figure it out. But anything else before we go?

Logan Webster: I think you answered my question, but I was curious to the reception of it and any feedback that y'all have gotten.

Katie Burke: I haven't gotten, you know, it's funny, I don't get a lot of feedback on my exhibits. Actually, the best way I get feedback is when I go to things like this and people, I'll randomly come across somebody that's been there and then they'll say something. But in general, you know, it's with the podcast as well and we've pleased people. If you have a topic that you want us to talk about, tell us. Or if you have an exhibit you want to see at the museum, tell me. But I've always been surprised with both of these avenues that we haven't always, people don't say anything. And we'd love to hear feedback and get recommendations and things. in the museum, and when people see it, I can… It's one of those things that… I've been in the museum there for eight years now, and I can watch people that are just drawn to things, and they'll come in from the waterfowling side, and they see the guns first, so they go straight to the guns, and then they will go straight to that case. It brings them in, and it's definitely an age group, a younger age group that likes it.

Logan Webster: Well, it's the same thing that brings people to the DU banquets with the guns.

Katie Burke: Y'all know what y'all are doing. People love guns. So yeah, that always is a big one. And that doesn't have to be a water fowler to want to look at guns. So that's why I think it's at a Bass Pro Shop. So I think sometimes they think they might be able to buy what's in the case. Which is definitely not the case.

Logan Webster: Yeah, some of the stuff in the DU part of it might be available on the site one day. We'll see. Well, the stuff that is on loan.

Katie Burke: I think I have one thing in there that's, I mean, the other stuff is modern. So that'll eventually be for sale too. But I think there's that one jacket that is ours. Other than that. So before we go, how do people find Camera Retro and you?

Logan Webster: CamoRetro.com, that's the marketplace, that's the website. Definitely if you are in the business of looking for stuff to buy, check the website first, not social media. Stuff gets listed and sold on there before I even have a chance to lay eyes on it. It's certainly happened while we've been recording this, haven't been looking at the phone.

Katie Burke: And then how do they know what shows you'll be at and stuff if they want to see you in person?

Logan Webster: You know, just go to a show and I might be there. That's been evolving. Sometimes I attend shows just like this one. I love being here. It's fun to go to the show. But just pay attention to our social media and our email newsletter. I give a pretty good update on what shows I'll be going to. Check out the website. It's free to make an account, free to list your stuff. When somebody buys your items, you get their shipping information, you send it to them, and after the customer has received the item, get paid. And then at CamoRetro on Instagram. And by all means, feel free to reach out if you have any questions about the gear that you're thinking about buying or already have. I'm happy to have that conversation with you and would love to hear your story. Whatever, what I tell people in the booth when I go to the show, in the booths when I go to the shows is I've got a history lesson for you, but if you have one for me, I'd love to hear it.

Katie Burke: Awesome. That's a great place to start. All right. Thanks, Logan. I really appreciate it. This was really fun. Thank you, Katie. I'm glad we finally got to do it. Absolutely.

Logan Webster: We only had to travel across the country to make it happen.

Katie Burke: We're really far from our homes right now.

Logan Webster: We live, what, four hours from each other, mate tops?

Katie Burke: Yeah, now we're in Maryland. Yeah, that's crazy. All right. Well, again, thank you so much. Thanks to our producer, Chris Isaac, and thanks to you, our listeners, for supporting wetlands and waterfowl conservation.