Ducks Unlimited Podcast

Katie Burke: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. This is your host, Katie Burke. And today on the show, I have a good friend of mine, Bruce Lowe. Bruce is mainly a Louisiana decoy collector, but he also collects teal decoys. I'm guessing all teal, right, Bruce? Like blue wing, green wing?

Bruce Lowe: Correct. Factory teal, as well as some of the better examples by individual carvers.

Katie Burke: And all three species?

Bruce Lowe: Gary Fossman Not cinnamon till, mainly because we almost never see them in Louisiana. In fact, I don't own one. I'd love to actually shoot one during a duck hunt one day. It happens rarely in my area, but mainly it's blue-winged till and green-winged till.

Katie Burke: Nicole Krasinski Yeah, and there's not a lot of cinnamon till decoys out there anyway.

Bruce Lowe: Gary Fossman That's correct. Those are pretty rare, and most of them are actually out on the West Coast. Once in a blue moon, somebody in Arkansas or Louisiana will harvest one, but that's very rare.

Katie Burke: All right, so kind of like, since we already know each other, but I kind of still want to kind of go back to the beginning and kind of talk about your introduction to the outdoors and then eventually into decoys and that sort of thing. So can you just kind of introduce yourself in that way to the audience and how you got into hunting and the outdoors and all of that?

Bruce Lowe: Yeah, again, I'm from Louisiana, actually up in the northwest corner. I'm from Shreveport, which is about as far away from the New Orleans area as you can get and still be in the same state. But there's a lot of hunting up in my area, a lot of duck hunting, as well as obviously down the coast of Louisiana. I didn't really grow up as a duck hunter. My dad was not a hunter. He played golf. I was really introduced to waterfowl hunting when I started dating my future wife. Gosh, I was a senior in high school, freshman in college. We went down, my future wife and I went down to visit my father-in-law. family several times on the Texas coast. He worked for a company at the time that had a camp, as we call them, in Port O'Connor, which is almost midway between Galveston and Corpus Christi. And it was great duck hunting back then during the season and great coastal fishing, speckled trout, redfish. And I just loved duck hunting, and then that's when I got the bug. But I was, like I say, maybe a freshman in college before I really began to love duck hunting.

Katie Burke: Beth Dombkowski Okay. Yeah. So you were later… It's funny because my husband didn't hunt until he met me. So that's… He's also… He hunts now. But yeah, I was definitely his introduction into waterfowling and all that. So when, okay, so this is interesting to me because you're not, I mean Shreveport's not that far from Arkansas. You're in Arkansas now, right?

Bruce Lowe: I do. I'm in a duck lease, have been for gosh, about 20 years in Southwest Arkansas. It's about 10 miles west of Texarkana, very close to the Red River. And it's just Red River bottom lands, it's WRP property. that an elderly man about 25 years ago put together. He started buying up just marginal agricultural land and put together this enormous WRP plot. And once it was all done, they created a hunting club and started leasing hunting rights. And interestingly, just about everybody, even way back then, and it's continued to today, just about all the members are from Shreveport. And during the last few years, they finally completed Interstate 49 from Shreveport all the way up to Texarkana. So now it's an easy drive up there. It's a little bit less than an hour and a half. And it's a great place to hunt. The hunting is not fabulous. I tell people every year is just good enough to get me to do it again the next year. I mean, we have some real good hunts, but we also have some pretty crummy hunts, but it's convenient.

Katie Burke: Right, and that's helpful.

Bruce Lowe: Yeah, I hunt in Louisiana occasionally. I've got a couple of friends in Shreveport that have nearby properties, and a lot of times I get to go down to the Lake Arthur Club, which is one of the famous historic clubs on the coast, well, right below the town of Lake Arthur. My brother actually works with one of the heirs, one of the current owners, and that's always a treat, but most of my hunting is in Arkansas.

Katie Burke: So yeah, it's so because it's interesting and this is what I don't know about you because your introduction you said was like Texas and then you know you're up in Shreveport and hunting in Arkansas and the decoys like there's just not a lot of decoys in those areas. I mean you have calls and stuff.

Bruce Lowe: No, there really aren't. I mean, once in a while I'll find something at a garage sale, a garage sale or an estate sale. In fact, my daughter is kind of a good picker for me. She's always looking for antique furniture. They live in an old two-story home and every time she goes to an estate sale, if there's a decoy, she'll send me a cell phone photograph and she's found me a couple of real nice birds over the years. But you're right, there was not much decoy carving in my region. And it took me quite a while to really learn about the old birds, like from the Houma, New Orleans, mouth of the Mississippi area. And it was a process, an educational process.

Katie Burke: Yes. So when did you first become aware of Louisiana decoys and that tradition?

Bruce Lowe: Well, I got into decoy collecting probably seriously in the early 1990s. I did buy a bird, gosh, in The mid-70s, my two oldest kids were just children, like probably four or five years old. We took a little short vacation down to the Texas Hill Country above San Antonio. And one day I just walked into this little antique store and there was an old redhead decoy, just a very primitive, repaid probably 100 times, but I still had it because it was the first bird that I owned. And I kind of dabbled at picking up an occasional bird, mostly just contemporary birds, like cork bodies, wooden heads. But sometime in the 90s, I really decided I was going to get into collecting the old birds in a big way. And I was a little more financially secure at that point. And I subscribed to Decoy Magazine at some point, probably 92, 93. and eventually I went to the Midwest show. It used to be called Midwest, now it's the North American show. It has a run outside of Chicago and that just blew me away. I mean, the room-to-room trading was amazing. The auction was actually when they sold Johnny Hillman's collection, very famous New Jersey collector. And he had some incredible birds. I guess the first time I ever bought a bird at auction, I bought a repainted Charles Black canvas back that Hillman had actually restored and repainted and still have it. It's a nice bird, even though it's been repainted. And I guess that's kind of when I've sought out information about Louisiana birds. And Alan Haid was at that show. I already had a copy of his book. I bought his book probably a year or two previously, Decoys of the Mississippi Flyway. And he's got a great section in there about Louisiana birds. And I visited with him at length, and he gave me quite a bit of information and told me to try to seek out Brian Cherami, who is, in my opinion, the Louisiana collector in our state. And the next year, in 1997, Brian actually came to the show, had a room. In fact, they put him in Bud Ward's old room. Bud Ward had passed away recently, and they let him have Bud's room which is a little more spacious than some and he brought some of his nicer birds to display and he was selling copies of his new book Louisiana Lures and Legends. It was when the book was first released and you know autographing all the copies. I got one from Brian that's when I first met him and spoke to him for a pretty good while And it took me several years to really kind of hook up with Brian and become friends. But his book, it just kind of became my Bible. It's by far the most organized, best book out there about Louisiana decoys, as you know. It's out of print, and because it's out of print, people are getting big bucks when you can find a copy. I mean, they're selling for like $300, $350. But it's really very well organized, great photography. I did also, before I got Brian's book, Charles Frank was one of the early collectors in New Orleans. And he published two books. In 75, he published Louisiana Duck Decoys. In 85, he published Wetland Heritage. And they're both good books. There's a lot of information, a lot of good photographs. um but we now know there's there's some misinformation some of the attributions were incorrect and charlie's books just were not that well organized it was just confusing to me and finally when i got brian's book it was like whoa now i understand now i can identify some of these birds i couldn't identify before And I started not only going to the Chicago show on an annual basis, but trying to meet some of the other collectors and contemporary carvers down in South Louisiana. And there's nothing like the real thing. If I was going to give collectors today advice, don't just do it online. Don't just look at books. You got to go to the shows. You're going to meet some great people. You're going to get to handle a lot of good birds. And there's just nothing like really picking up those birds and identifying. You just learn so much more than just looking at pictures.

Katie Burke: When did you start, so your first few ducks, when you realized that there were Louisiana birds? Did you take what you already had and use that to build a Louisiana collection? Or did you just kind of start buying and then weeding out older stuff later? Or how did that process work to kind of hone that in?

Bruce Lowe: I would say, Katie, until I went to that first Midwest show in 96, I'm not sure I owned a Louisiana decoy. I really wanted to get into it, but I recognized that I just didn't know much. I needed to educate myself. That's kind of when I began to seek out some Louisiana birds and purchase a few. One of the other guys, I mentioned Alan Haid, I met Tom O'Keefe, who is deceased, as is Alan, and Tom became a good friend of mine. At some point, in fact, he was the treasurer for many years of the board. And I always look forward to seeing him because he collected Louisiana birds as well as Illinois River birds. He was retired from United Airlines, and I think he actually helped them develop their first computerized booking system. Just very nice guy, and he taught me a lot about what to look for in terms of, has this bird been repaired or repainted or touched up? And I went to his home. In fact, he lived about an hour's drive away from Feather Run. And a couple of times, we actually went to his house and I had the chance to see his birds. Some of my better birds I got from Tom. At some point, he decided to get out of Louisiana birds and concentrate more on the Illinois River. And he kind of gave me first choice. He contacted me and sent me a list of about 30 decoys. And I think I ended up buying 10 to 12 of those birds. And he was absolutely an influence. The other thing that happened at that first show, and I've told this story many times, I ran into Charlie Saffley, who was a dermatologist in Memphis. And we got in the elevator together at Fezzer Run first year. And I started talking, or he started talking, and I replied, and he said, you've got to be from the South. You know, we both have a Southern accent. And he said, I'm going to show you around. And he just kind of took me by the arm and led me up and down the halls and introduced me to tons of people, a lot like, you know, the Tonellis, Alan Haig, Russ Goldberger, Hank Norman. I mean, I could just go on and on. He really jumpstarted my collecting because, you know, I was just a newbie. I didn't know any of these people. I knew some of the names. but he spent probably three or four hours just kind of walking me from room to room and introducing me. I've gotten Louisiana birds from all over. I mean, purchased directly from other collectors, eBay, the auctions, the shows, the national show. I've gotten good birds all all venues, out of the rooms, out of the auctions, and the show that's held at the end. And that's what I love about that big show. You never know what's going to show up. And again, I don't collect just Louisiana, and I'm kind of an outlier as far as the guys in Louisiana, because almost everybody in Louisiana collects only Louisiana decoys. But I don't know why I got into teal. Maybe that first year I did buy a little nascent teal, a little blue wing, and decided, well, I'm gonna try to collect all of the nascent teal, which is just about impossible. If you get like, well, if you collect all five grades and a hen and a drake above a blue wing and a green wing, that's 20 decoys. And right now, I think I have 17 or 18. I'm still missing a couple. I've been trying to do it for 30 years. Some of them are just so uncommon, so rare, it's almost impossible to find everything to fill the holes. And then I started collecting teal by other guys. I had some Purdue teal, Sibley teal, several nice Illinois River teals. Billy Shaw, and that's what I try to do. I'm not saying I have the best example. I have one mason hen that's just museum quality, probably the best mason teal I have. There are certainly people like Jim Goodman, for example, that have much better examples of quite a few of the decoys that I own, but I don't concentrate on just mason or just factories.

Katie Burke: Beth Dombkowski Okay. Do you stick to the Mississippi Flyway or do you go outside of there?

Bruce Lowe: I mean, they're mostly from the Mississippi Flyway, but… Charles Dickerson Yeah, most of my birds are Mississippi Flyway, but no, not exclusively. I've got, I guess, three or four birds from California. Beth Dombkowski Yeah, so that's the other area. And I've got some Canadian teal that I think are pretty neat. So I'm not trying to… And I think that's one… You don't want to limit yourself too much. I mean, if somebody said, well, I don't want to collect anything but Louisiana mallards. I mean, that's too specialized. It's boring. But there are people that just, they don't really specialize in a region or a car route. They just want the best of the best. Like that's what Dr. McCleary did. I did attend that auction. That was quite an experience. It was held over three sessions and my wife went with me. We had not been to New York City since we were growing up and it was really cold. It was like six degrees the night that we got off the plane. But I'll never forget, Katie, we went to that first auction session on Saturday morning, and now I can't remember the birds without looking at the catalog, but the first one hammered down for $50,000, the second one was $100,000, and my wife started tugging on me and said, hey, you don't have any business in this one, let's get up and go eat lunch somewhere. It just blew her away.

Katie Burke: Who did that? Did Sotheby's do that?

Bruce Lowe: Yeah, it was a joint effort with Sotheby's and Gaia and Smith, I guess, back then. And it was interesting because they had, like up on the second floor, it was almost like a skybox of a football stadium with a big glass window. And Dr. McCleary's two daughters were up there with a calculator and probably glasses of champagne. adding it up, and it ended up being just shy of $11 million. And that was such a great opportunity, because you could actually handle all these decoys. I think they had three or four, they were kind of a little pedestal with a guard. and you had to ask permission to carefully pick up the bird. But it was a great, great experience to actually see all the birds that he collected. And his philosophy was just buy the best. And as he was doing it, people said, that man's crazy, he'll never get his money back. But he proved them wrong. I mean, that was just an amazing auction.

Katie Burke: What year was that?

Bruce Lowe: The year 2000, I'm almost positive.

Katie Burke: Can you imagine if that sold today?

Bruce Lowe: Well, you know, and the decoy market is not unlike the stock market. It does sort of wax and wane a little bit. It does. Well, the Mason decoys, for example, kind of went into a slump and weren't commanding near the prices they were like 15 years ago, but it's beginning to change. And Katie, I never got into it as an investment. There's some people that always have sort of a dealer mentality. Can I turn around a year from now and sell this decoy for a whole lot more money than I paid for it, or at least make a profit? And I don't do that. I just collect to fill holes in my collection and give me pleasure. And I've got a big room full of my decoys with shelving and a large table in the middle. And I drink my coffee and read the Wall Street Journal in there every morning. And I just love to look, I tell my wife I'm going to spend time with my loved ones.

Katie Burke: How old were you when you started collecting? It's like, how long have you been collecting?

Bruce Lowe: Well, let's see. I'm 75 now, so 30 years ago. I mean, I'm not counting that one that I bought in 75. That was kind of an out, that little redhead that I still am. It's an ugly, ugly bird. Yeah, that's your first bird. But probably the real early or when I really got into it was around 1990, about 35 years ago. I think that's often the case because people get to a certain age where they've gotten the time to take off four or five days and travel to Chicago to that show, and they're beginning to have a little extra money. Maybe their children have finished college, And typically the people that have successful careers have gotten to the point where they can spend money on something like this. And the good stuff, I think, may be a good investment. I'm real curious to see what happens this year. As you know, they're going to auction off the first portion of Alan Hayes' collection, and I think the rest are going to be auctioned in the summer. I think we may never know what he paid initially for some of those decoys, but I can almost promise you his heirs are going to end up with an awful lot of money. I think it was a good investment.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I think so too.

Bruce Lowe: I think this is a true story. Apparently at some point Alan went to his wife Elaine and said, hey, we're going to sell all of our stocks. We're getting out of the stock market and we're going to just invest in quality duck decoys. And that's a pretty gutsy decision. In fact, my wife would probably shoot me if I said something like that. But I really think it is going to work out for well as heirs, since they're… Yeah, I mean, there's some great decoys in that collection.

Katie Burke: Oh, yeah. It's going to be fun to watch.

Bruce Lowe: Absolutely.

Katie Burke: You know it's been kind, have you noticed it's been kind of boring the last few auctions and I guess like I was talking to John Dieter about it and he was saying, yeah he thinks a lot of people were just saving their money for like he's been like a lot of people didn't show come to auctions and show up they've been like kind of waiting for this auction to come about so it'll be interesting.

Bruce Lowe: Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah, people were keeping their powder dry. And it almost takes a nasty divorce or a death for some of these birds to finally reach the market. And Alan passed away, and then his wife passed away not too long after. He does have an incredible collection. It may rival the McCleary collection in terms of dollars. I have no idea. It's going to be fun to see.

Katie Burke: We've talked about it on here already, but that black duck, Elmer Crowell, I can't wait to see what it goes for. Have you seen that one in person?

Bruce Lowe: I have not. I know it's been displayed in several museums or shows through the years. I've seen photographs, but I've never had the chance to actually handle and see the bird in the wood, as we say.

Katie Burke: Yeah, you'll enjoy seeing it. So I was at John's house over Easton and he had it in his home. Oh man. I got to spend some time with it. It's impressive. It's definitely one of the best examples out there.

Bruce Lowe: Yeah, I think that chip carving. That's what I said, the chip carving. That's what it is. It's fascinating. And that was very early. He only did that in some of his real early birds.

Katie Burke: Well, the illusion of the, it gives it this like, when the light hits it and stuff, it gets, cause a black duck for, you know, paint wise is pretty boring, right? Like it's not a very detailed, I mean, to some people, we'll get into Louisiana carvers, but for the most part of black duck paint is pretty boring. But because of that chip detail carving, which people who are listening need to go on, it's on their Guy and Dieter's website. The way the light hits it, it gives it so much more interest and kind of texture to the bird. It kind of really looks more like the feathers. It's really cool.

Bruce Lowe: Terry Wilson, PhD Yeah, I agree. I think it's just, it's absolutely one of the most classic decoys out there and one of Elmer Cole's best. And I bet it will sell for a half a million dollars at least. Yeah, probably more.

Katie Burke: I think it'll go over, but probably go over what, because it's not, another one's not going to come up anytime soon, so.

Bruce Lowe: That's right. That's right.

Katie Burke: This one's going to be gone for a while. It's one of those that will never, it'll be, we won't know probably who gets it, but it's one of those that you really want to know who got it.

Bruce Lowe: You're probably right. You know, the auction houses are supposed to keep all of that information confidential, but a lot of times it finally comes out. It usually finally comes out.

Katie Burke: But yeah, it'll probably go over the phone, so we probably won't know. But I'm sure they already know who's going to buy it at this point.

Bruce Lowe: Well, they have a good idea. Yeah, I'm sure.

Katie Burke: Let's take a quick break and then I want to get into Louisiana decoys because Louisiana decoys are also my favorite decoys. So I kind of want to get into the ins and outs of what makes a Louisiana decoy special. So let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Welcome back, everybody. So like I said before the break, I want to talk to you, Bruce, about Louisiana decoys, and they're extremely unique from every other decoy. I mean, they have a few classic carving examples, but for the most part, they're not only unique to the state of Louisiana, but unique to the area that they were carved, into the small towns, into the carvers themselves. To get started, can you just kind of give us the overview of what a Louisiana decoy is? And then maybe after that, we can kind of go into some of these different carvers and what made them all unique and different.

Bruce Lowe: Well, first of all, they're almost never hollow, like some regions of the country. And the reason is they typically used either cypress root, the root of a cypress tree, or Tupelo gum. And that wood is just inherently very light. almost like a piece of styrofoam, and that's one of the differential… One way that those Louisiana birds are different from most other areas of the country, they're just practically never hollowed out, and very flamboyantly painted. The paint is just… Sometimes it's sort of primitive, but very colorful, and many times the birds have like a real upswept tail, A lot of, not a lot, some are made in a preening position where the head is turned back. And I don't know, a seasoned collector can just probably across the room look at a decoy and say, that's gotta be a Louisiana bird. And they did vary a lot in style, depending on the individual carver. I mentioned how light the cypress root is. I've got a Nicole Vodakovich pintail, one of my favorite birds. And you pick that bird up and it's just, you can't believe how light it is. Nicole Vodakovich Yeah, they are. Ed Miller It's literally like picking up a piece of styrofoam. They just weigh very little.

Katie Burke: So I have a question then, and I didn't think about this before, and your decoys were at the museum at one point, and yours and Brian's, and so I know what you're talking about. So Louisiana decoys for the most part tend to be on the smaller side, and is that because of the limitations of say like the cypress knee? Is that why even the mallards themselves sometimes are smaller?

Bruce Lowe: I don't know, Katie, that's a good question. I think sometimes, especially the guys that didn't use patterns, and that was quite often the case, the size of the wood just sort of dictated the size of the bird. And if it was a tiny little piece of wood, maybe they made it a teal. And if it was real elongated, they'd make it into a pintail with a long sprig tail. And I guess the other thing is, you know, the smaller they are, the easier it is to carry a burlap sack full of birds out into the marsh.

Katie Burke: Yeah, and you got to remember this is Louisiana, so getting out into the marsh was not that easy.

Bruce Lowe: Exactly. And this was before the era of go-devils, and we use up in Arkansas those big plastic sleds instead of decoy bags. And you can just put all your gear in those sleds and pull them out. But back then, they literally used just burlap sacks full of decoys, and walking through that muck is not easy. And I think that's one reason they tended to make them a little smaller. There was a carver from Lake Arthur, Nick Trahan, probably by far the most prolific carver from that area. His birds varied in size enormously. And again, it just depended on the size of the wood. I mean, I've seen some pintails. that almost look like they should have been teal, and yet I've seen some fairly big birds, almost magnum that he made, because that piece of wood was just bigger. But there were some people, and they do it for tweed from Raceland, used a bandsaw and patterns, and his birds were almost like factory birds. I mean, they're just almost identical, like all of his ringnecks look alike, they're the same size, because he would cut the the pattern out with a bandsaw, but most of the old guys didn't do that. They just used a hatchet and an ax and chopped them out. And that's why the size varied so much. But you're right, in general, they are smaller.

Katie Burke: I was just, yeah, when you said that, it kind of just occurred to me that… Because the one thing when I think of Louisiana decoys, I think of how folksy they are and how the carvers themselves… It's almost like, now some carvers you can tell that they were influenced by other carvers around them, but sometimes it's almost like some of these carvers definitely were in a bubble. I mean, like Ansari, like his stuff is just drastically different from anyone else's. Yeah, it's just, it's very like, yeah, it feels like they're almost in a bubble compared to other car, like in other regions.

Bruce Lowe: I think in the more rural regions, that's absolutely true. This was before modern transportation and interstate highways. And some of these guys were just in little tiny communities that were often only approachable or mainly approachable by boat. And you're right. They developed their own style, their own paint patterns. And very few people saw their carvings, and they weren't exposed to a bunch of carvings by other than that. Now, in the city of New Orleans, a metropolitan area, that wasn't really so much true. I'll give you an example. Robert Caret, who made the lifelike lures, he was really a mechanical genius and developed like a machine that milled out these birds. And the people, the hunters in New Orleans really liked the way they looked. They were flat-bottomed, they were stable, little potholes. And several carvers made birds that looked very much like his birds. So there was, in an area like that, one man influencing other carvers. But when you were isolated way out in a tiny village somewhere, a rural area, you weren't exposed to many other carvers.

Katie Burke: Yeah. Most of them, I'm guessing, were making decoys just for themselves to hunt. And then were they market hunting at all to sell back? Or were some of them also making decoys for some of these bigger camps that are down in that area as well as guides?

Bruce Lowe: I think it was a little bit of both, Katie. Yes, some of the guys only made a small number of birds for their own hunting rigs, and therefore their birds are hard to come by. Well, Nicole Ladakovich, probably the most famous carver from Louisiana, was a guy that's a Delta Duck Club down at the mouth of the river. And he created, I think, quite a few birds to fill out the hunting rigs at that club back in the day. But that area is so vulnerable. There's so many bad hurricanes that have come through. In fact, in 1915, I believe, huge storm came in, kind of like Katrina, very much like Katrina, came up the mouth about the same intensity and Nicole escaped and relocated to New Orleans, to the city, but probably most of those birds that he had made for the Delta Duck Club just disappeared. because of the severe storms. And I think that's what happened to a lot of them. There were a few guys like Dewey Pertwee, for example. He was kind of almost like a factory. There are a lot of Pertwee birds still out there. Probably some are still being used, still being hunted over. Over in Lake Arthur, Nick Trahan made a ton of decoys. In fact, I went to interview or see his nephew when he was still alive. He was an old man, he passed away several years ago, but he could remember hunters from Arkansas, I'd never heard this before, coming down in pickups and they would just pile Nick Trahan decoys in the back of the pickup and take them up to Arkansas somewhere to hunt with. Nick made thousands of birds. There were a few of them that kind of became… It was a business, creating decoys to sell to other hunters. But I think it was much more common for people to just make birds for their own use, for their own hunting rig.

Katie Burke: Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned something about the hurricanes, and that's something I'd like you to talk about because it's very unique to Louisiana in that one thing you always hear from collectors and people like this, when it comes to Louisiana decoys, they don't quite have the restrictions on quality as much because it's rare to find one that there's no damage, there's no repaint. So, can you kind of speak to that a little bit on… Because I think, especially with people who are new to collecting, I don't think they really… It's hard to understand that a region could have different, I don't know, expectations to what kind of decoy you're going to find. Does that make sense?

Bruce Lowe: Yeah, and I don't know quite how to answer that. I mean, I think, obviously, like with all deepwater collecting, what you really want to try to find is a bird that hasn't been repaired, that's in completely original paint, and that's kind of the gold standard. But in our area, in Louisiana, the conditions were quite harsh. I mean, a lot of them were used out in brackish water. The salt water is very corrosive. And the storms just beat the heck out of a lot of birds or destroy them completely. And therefore, you're going to find a fair number of Louisiana birds that have had tail repairs, replaced bills, and the whole concept, in my opinion, of original paint. is a little crazy when you think about it, because these guys were using these birds. They weren't collectibles back then. These were hunting tools. And they did repaint some of them from time to time and touched up the paint from time to time. That was just the norm. And it's certainly best to find a bird that hasn't been touched, but I think it's fairly uncommon. I've got a little Charlie Tron Mallard, which I love this bird. Actually, my daughter found it in a garage sale or a state sale in Shreveport, and it's in great condition. I think the reason it's in such great condition is probably somebody I bought the bird home as a souvenir from a South Louisiana duck hunt and just put it on a shelf a long, long time ago. I hate to say that our standards are a little more relaxed because I don't know that that's completely true. You do find a significant number of birds that have some repair. And what I always tell collectors is that ought to be disclosed. If somebody is selling you a bird, the first thing you want to ask is, what's been done to this bird? Does it have any touch up? Is the head original to the body? Has that build been replaced? Those sorts of questions in an ideal world should always be answered honestly. There's some unscrupulous people out there that won't tell you the truth. And I think there's counterfeits in all regions. Some Louisiana birds have been reproduced. But I guarantee you, there's some Ward Brothers birds out there that weren't made by the Ward Brothers. There's some produced out there. It's all over the country. People joke about Elmer Kroll. I mean, I've heard a couple of guys say, well, he must have been working 24-7 for 100 years to create the number of birds that are out there. So some of them are probably reproductions, and the quality of some of the reproductions is kind of amazing. And there are ways to artificially age birds to make them look older than they really are, but it takes time to develop an eye. look at a bird and say, yes, this one's original paint, no, this one's been repainted. And again, my advice is go to the shows, pick up the birds and examine as many as you can. Visit other collectors. I've been pretty aggressive about this. I mean, if I'm gonna be in a town where I know somebody's got a good collection, I'll try to reach them on the phone and arrange a visit. And most collectors are quite proud of their collection. They're very pleased to have someone come by, talk about decoys.

Katie Burke: Yeah, no, I mean, they think about it all the time, so it's their hobby, yeah. You know, you're talking about artificially aging, and I think I've mentioned it, I don't know if I've mentioned it on here, but I've mentioned it all the time, like, thank goodness Cameron McIntyre signs things like that. He can artificially age a bird better than anyone I've ever seen, like, it's magical, honestly.

Bruce Lowe: Katie, I've got a bird that my father-in-law mentioned that he kind of introduced me to duck hunting. And at some point, he found this old canvas bag with almost no remaining paint with a bill just completely broken off up into the head. And he kept it for a long time. And when he realized I was getting into collecting duck decoys in a big way, he gave it to me. and I had it for several years, and I eventually took it up to Thousand Run when Cameron was up there, and I said, can you repair this? And he really doesn't like to repair as much as he likes to create his own work, but he did do it, and it's just incredible. I mean, the grain of the wood matches the wood that he used to replace the bill. I mean, without an x-ray, even with an x-ray, it would be real, real hard to see that that bird has a completely replaced bill. You're right, he's incredibly talented. It is almost magical.

Katie Burke: I know, and he won't tell anybody what he does, but he's keeping those secrets, but yeah.

Bruce Lowe: No, they are. I had that discussion with Bill Hanneman recently. He's a famous restorer of Louisiana birds, although he's kind of retired and no longer does that. But I said, man, I'd love to just know what chemicals do you guys use? Do you bury them out in your backyard for three months or do you put them in a crab trap and let the crabs bounce them around? He said, you're never going to get people like myself to reveal those sorts of secret techniques. And they all do. It's just trial and error. They've all got their little caustic chemicals and things that they use to make them look all of a sudden a hundred years old.

Katie Burke: It's crazy. The older decoys, the gunning decoys, which is what you've always specializes, one thing I've never quite understood the evolution in Louisiana from, because it had so many gunning decoy carvers historically, but then it has evolved into being one of the biggest decorative carving states per capita, like having the most carvers per capita and winners of the award competition. Do you know why it changed? Why did carvers change from gunning to decorative? What was the catalyst for that? Why did they move that way?

Bruce Lowe: I think part of it was the show that Charles Frank put together. I think the first one was held in 1975. It's the Louisiana Wildfowl Carvers and Collectors Guild. They call it the Louisiana Wildfowl Festival. And I think the first one was held in 75 in the New Orleans area. And Charlie was aggressive about raising money. He got a lot of the oil companies down in that area to put some money up. And they started having these competitions with big money for first place for the Blue Ribbon. And I think that's kind of when it was really begun in a big way, and because there was such big money, a lot of these guys, they were talented, started making contemporary or decorative carvings. Tan Brunet is the best example. I mean, he won the award several years, and both of his sons have as well. Tan's now deceased, but I mean, those guys can create birds that look like taxidermy specimens. I mean, they really do. I mean, you have to kind of… Is that a mounted bird or is that a decoy? And I mean, the feathers look so real and the burning techniques that they use for the softness.

Katie Burke: Oh, yeah. And they're all oil painters too, which I can always tell the difference between when it uses oil versus acrylic, like it's how much softer they look.

Bruce Lowe: One of the shows that I'm promoting and I go to every year is held in late October. It is the same show. They now hold it in Mandeville in the Castine Center, which is on the north shore of Lake Pontchartrain. It's not actually in the city of New Orleans. And it's a combination of a few of us like myself that bring antique birds and a lot of competitive carving. And most of the shows are like that now. There's one that's held in Lowe's every year, the Cajun Heritage Festival. And there's some competitive carving as well as guys with tables with antique decoys. But you're right. I mean, I think By far, more talented carvers from Louisiana have won the Ward World Championship than any other area.

Katie Burke: Yeah, it's up there. I think Wisconsin might be the other state that has a high percentage.

Bruce Lowe: I can't remember. I can't remember.

Katie Burke: It's a Midwest state. I think it's Wisconsin, but I could have that wrong. Maybe.

Bruce Lowe: I'm not sure. I can't remember.

Katie Burke: doc or an article or something that I read about like there used to be like a big competition and like Louisiana would be in one side of the stands and the other state would be in the other and it was like this big rivalry between the two states at one point. But I think it's Wisconsin. I can't, it's been a while since I read that so I'm not sure. But yeah, that makes sense that there was a financial incentive to then switch over to the more modern decorative stuff.

Bruce Lowe: I think that's what really got it going. And there were some people, in fact, in this auction coming up, there's a section of decorative Louisiana birds out of Roger Bourgeois' collection. He was a big collector of those kinds of carvings from Houma and passed away a couple of years ago. And if you look in the Guide and Dieter catalog, there's several pages of decoys that are being sold out of his collection. I've never really gotten into that in a big way. I mainly prefer the old working vintage decoys. I do own three or four really wonderful decorative carvings, but that's not my main focus collecting-wise.

Katie Burke: Yeah, it's just, yeah, and I knew that, I just, and I kind of, with you, I kind of lean towards more the gunning stuff and the older decoys. But it is a, I was really interested in, I'm glad you kind of knew the answer, because there was definitely a transition, right? Because Louisiana was known for its style of gunning decoy, and then now I would say it's more known for this decorative aspect. So, it's kind of unique in that aspect, you know, that it evolved to another style.

Bruce Lowe: You know, people worry that most of the guys, except for the Brunei sons that are still carving, most of the guys that carve in Louisiana, an awful lot of them are my age or older. And of course, that's all over the country. People say, you know, gosh, we need some more people in this. We need to encourage decoy carving. We need to encourage collecting. What's going to happen to all these decoys when it's time to sell them? But I've been hearing that for 35 years. And I think the decoy market is strong. It has changed. I mean, an awful lot of people do it online now. They don't actually attend the shows. And I do the same. I bought a bird just the other day, and well, Auctioneers Incorporated is one of the Michigan guys that's trying to compete with the big dogs, and it's pretty much exclusively online. But there's nothing like going to a show. It's probably the third or fourth time I've said this. attend the shows and then meet people and then pick up the birds.

Katie Burke: I agree. And yeah, and that's something people, they say that about Ducks Unlimited members and they say that about, like, we have to keep doing it. But I think one of the things, I think younger people are interested Now, carvers, that's tougher just because there's such… I can't remember who I talked about this recently, but I don't think we're hitting… We need a focus for carvers. It needs to be on very young people if you want to have people carve when they're older. I think trying to teach someone who's already an adult to carve is tough. Adults don't really have the patience for being bad at things, whereas children do. So, I think that's a big difference. But when it comes to collecting, I think they're interested. I just think, like you said earlier, there's a time in your life that you can actually start collecting.

Bruce Lowe: You got some money and you got the time to take off work several days to attend the show, for example. In a way, I hesitate to talk about 50,000, 100,000, those kind of decoys. I think it scares off some of the guys that want to get into it. There are a lot of great birds out there that are still being sold for just $100 a bird. $200 or even less. There's several levels. I've never bought a $100,000 bird. That's kind of out of my range, but that's what makes the headlines and gets all the press. But you need to emphasize that there are plenty of good birds out there for a heck of a lot less money.

Katie Burke: There are, and we've talked about at least decoys for sale, and then you just mentioned another one, and there are more trusted online auctions that are coming available where you can actually trust the auctioneer and the condition report and all that. That's becoming more available online than it has been before it was just eBay, and that's kind of the Wild West of decoy collecting. It's getting to be where you can trust some of these online auctions that have these lower priced.

Bruce Lowe: Yeah. And then deal with people that you know, and then hopefully that you can trust. I mean, eBay is a little scary because like you say, it is sort of the wild west. It's funny, I've bought a bunch of birds on eBay. I've returned a couple. I think I've only been really burned maybe once or twice. where somebody refused to take the bird back or give me a refund. But most people in the collecting game are good folks. There are a few bad apples out there that are pushing counterfeits and ripping people off. That's the exception to the rule. And then you're right. I mean, well, Facebook is interesting. It's opened up a whole new avenue to share information and photographs. And some of the old guys say, well, nobody comes to the shows anymore. It's not like it used to be. That's not really completely true. But there are a lot of people that are just kind of doing it online. They did online. They look at Facebook daily. It's just changed.

Katie Burke: I think we need to be fair because we forget like these guys who are first story, I guess because they're usually closer to my age and I know what part of life I'm in with small kids. It's not easy to get to shows, right? I mean, I get to go because it's part of my job, but it's not easy to do that. You're taking time away from a family who has… You have lots of sports and all those activities that you have to deal with. So when you get to that point in your life where you can go, I think people are going. I think it's just, we need to be a little more generous with what our expectations are of some of these younger carvers.

Bruce Lowe: Right. I mean, I'm looking forward to that show in Lombard in about 10 days. I mean, there's just, it's so much fun to go room to room and see some people that maybe you're only going to see once a year. I mean, I've got a lot of friends. I communicate by email and phone during the year, but I only see them at Chicago once a year. And you just, you never know what's going to show up. It's just, it's cool.

Katie Burke: And that room-to-room is particularly special and it's really only there that you get to do that and you really get to talk to people and see their decoys and you get to spend some time like versus if you're standing at someone's table and there's a crowd walking behind you, right? Like you're in their hotel room.

Bruce Lowe: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I mean and you know maybe share a meal in the evening or share a beer downstairs in their little bar area. The social part of it is a big part of it, in my opinion, and probably 50% of the fun.

Katie Burke: Yeah, and you never know what's going to come. I don't know how to describe, but you can probably do this better, but sometimes you'll be in someone's room, and somebody will come in, they'll hear you talking, and they'll leave, and they'll come back, and they'll be carrying something really special that they had hidden in their room. that you didn't know about?

Bruce Lowe: Oh yeah, and that happens all the time. People will set up potential deals before the show and they've got this great bird in a drawer hidden away from the general public and waiting for this one person to come in and look at it and buy it. That happens a lot. I'll get a phone call occasionally. Hey, I've got this duck. I'm pretty sure it's Louisiana bird. I'm going to give you first crack at it. There was a guy that's, I think he's deceased now. He used to come to Feather Run. I used to love to walk into his room and say, okay, open up all those doors. I want to see the good stuff. He'd always have three or four of them just kind of hidden away.

Katie Burke: I always find it funny with the calls because they're so pocketable and people have the calls in their pocket and they'll just pull them out. It's a really cool place. If you're going to go to one, that's the one I always recommend to go to because it's

Bruce Lowe: Yeah, I would absolutely. That show and maybe the show in Easton. Easton's a lot of fun. I haven't been to that show as often. I've been three or four times. But, gosh, the weather is usually nice. The leaves are changing colors. The geese are flying overhead. And it's just so spread out. It's not just the auction. I mean, there are all kinds of activities throughout the town of Easton. But those, in my mind, are probably the two shows to recommend. But, gosh, as you well know, there are shows all over the place. Yep, they're everywhere. I mean, they really are. And you need to attend a few of them to see the birds.

Katie Burke: Yeah. And you'll get, like Chicago, you get the biggest percentage of carvers and you get them from kind of all over. But, there are carvers that are in North Carolina that won't leave that area, or collectors that'll stay in that area versus an Easton on the Eastern Shore. Certain people aren't going to travel that far. So, if you're looking for something particular, especially a certain area, you need to go to that area, right?

Bruce Lowe: Yeah, by and large you do. Go to one of the Louisiana shows if you're seeking out Louisiana birds. Although, just about every year I've found one or two good Louisiana birds in the rooms. It depends on the auction. Some years more than others, but the guy in need of auction typically will have several Louisiana birds. featured in the catalog. But yeah, it's a regional thing. And you're right about North Carolina. Those guys tend to stay in North Carolina, but that's true to an extent of Louisiana as well.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I would say I'd see the same couple of Louisiana folks every year. But yeah, and then they're never seen. So before we finish up, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd want to talk about? Like, is there anything we've missed?

Bruce Lowe: I don't think so. I think, again, if you can find a copy of Brian Sheremy's book, if you're wanting to get into Louisiana decoys, that's the first thing I would recommend. They're out of print, but if you're willing to spend the money, there are always a few available. Attend some shows. You know, just jump into it. It's a lot of fun, and you'll meet some great people.

Katie Burke: You know what we didn't talk about at all, that he's one of my favorite Carvers, and I think he's one of yours too, is Mark Whipple. We didn't talk about him at all. And his stuff is, well, and then I guess the other one is LaFrance, but their stuff is so unique. And I'd say LaFrance is also that style continues to be copied today. Why do you think Louisiana carvers copy that shape so much? It's still the one I see being mimicked over and over, that sweeping back of the neck carving.

Bruce Lowe: Well, to me, they're just very appealing. His style is just classic. And as you know, there were three guys involved with most of those birds. LaFrance was older. He was kind of the entrepreneur and the businessman. He chopped them out. And Geoffro, Charles Geoffro did more than fine carving. Yeah, I didn't want to attempt their names. Yeah, and George Frederick did most of the painting. And that was not an absolute at all. I think they all created wonderful birds independently. But I don't know how to answer that, except they're just incredibly desirable decoys. I mean, I love LaFrance birds, and the Wimple birds down on Bayou Terrebonne, they're just completely different. And he made a lot of birds over about a 50-year period. I think he was pretty prolific, and then finding one that's in great shape and original paint is rare, but I think he made an awful lot of them. He was an interesting man. He had a big family. His wife died at an early age, so he kind of raised all the kids. And supposedly, the kids all participated. They would sand some of the birds for him. you know, maybe do some of the painting. And one thing I discovered about him, he was sort of the village dentist in Byrd, Louisiana, which is close to home. He wasn't a dentist, but he had some instruments, some oral surgery instruments. I'm a retired oral surgeon, and that's why the interest, and he would pull teeth. for people in the village and probably trade a decoy or trade some produce, some fresh tomatoes or something. He was a very interesting little man, but I think it was at least 50 years that he carved.

Katie Burke: Yeah, and his pintails are so iconic because he has that broomstick tail.

Bruce Lowe: Yeah, people call it a broom handle tail. It does. It's very elongated and just, I don't know, real sleek. That's one of my favorite birds. I've got a Whipple pintail that I just love.

Katie Burke: Well, it's such a good design, especially with where they were hunting them and how rough they were treated. It's a sturdy pintail.

Bruce Lowe: Some of their styles did change a little bit. When Charles Joffreaux split away from Little France group and then later George Frederick moved back down south of New Orleans, LaFrance was still making some birds. And one thing I've noticed is some of those birds during that era in the 50s, the bill is real thick. And Eric Hutchinson, who is a Creole carver from New Orleans, his dad and his uncle, Car birds very similar to in some respects a little France words, but Eric said mr. Frost told him one time That that's the handle of the decoy when the water is freezing cold You just reach down and grab that bill and pick the bird. I don't get your hands freezing cold And then that's why I made them so thick

Katie Burke: Yeah, so smart. Louisiana birds are so unique per who was making them, and those are two of my favorite ones, so I didn't want to not mention them before we left. Well, anyway, I think that's all I can think of right now, but we could talk forever. Okay. Thank you for coming on, Bruce. This was really good, and I can't wait to see you in a couple of days.

Bruce Lowe: Oh, yes. It's going to be good to see you, and I appreciate the opportunity to visit with you.

Katie Burke: Thanks, Bruce, for coming on the show. Thanks to our producer, Chris Isaac, and thanks to you, our listener, for supporting wetlands and waterfowl conservation.