Ducks Unlimited Podcast

Katie Burke: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. On the show today, I have the wildlife artist, Chuck Black, also the 2023 Federal Duck Stamp Competition winner. Welcome to the show, Chuck.

Chuck Black: Thank you. I appreciate you having me in here. It's been a long time coming. I know there's been back and forth, but I'm happy we made it work.

Katie Burke: You've had a busy year, so it's okay. Yeah, right. And just kind of, when is the competition coming up? It's soon. It's like in the next month or so.

Chuck Black: September 18th and 19th.

Katie Burke: So, after that, your duties for this year will be complete?

Chuck Black: Pretty much. There's one more event at the Ding Darling Refuge in Florida, and that's like his birthday celebration, and so they have the previous year's winner for that every year.

Katie Burke: Okay. And then, has the junior happened already? It has.

Chuck Black: Okay. Yeah, that's in the end of April. Okay.

Katie Burke: So yeah, so you're, you're getting close to your year long tour of being the federal Duck Stamp winner. Yeah.

Chuck Black: And now, and now it goes from like travel and events and to more of, of, I guess, like packaging and shipping. That's kind of what we've been doing lately, which is a good problem to have. You can't complain.

Katie Burke: Right. Yeah. Cause you just had the announced, well, I mean the, the, the first day of sale was like three weeks ago at this point.

Chuck Black: Yes. Yeah. June 28th.

Katie Burke: Okay. Yeah. So now you're actually selling things. So now you get some money. Correct.

Chuck Black: You're right. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Yeah.

Katie Burke: Yeah. So that's a good point of it. Cause probably before that you were doing a lot of this stuff for free and now you actually get to start making money off that win.

Chuck Black: Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, as far as like the federal duck stamp goes, I guess it's just the prints. And so you're doing all this stuff and you're traveling all around and meeting people, which is great. I think one of the biggest, more than just like the prints, it's just been getting out and meeting people and hearing their story and getting to network with people. I mean, that's been like the biggest, uh, ROI, I guess you could say as being the winner this year that I've found. So that's, I mean, that's been awesome.

Katie Burke: Yeah, you're the first person. Well, you're the third Duck Stamp winner I spoke with. And then was Adam was the first one and he had done it a while ago, right? It wasn't like he wasn't currently in the process. And then I talked to Joe at the I guess right after the first day of sale, but he's done it so many times. It was just like normal for him, right? It wasn't anything that different. So you're the first person who's like experiencing it for the first time and kind of learning that whole thing. Yeah, definitely. And yeah, it's a lot. I think it's a lot for artists, but it's great, but it's a lot.

Chuck Black: Yeah, it is. And you know, and I come from a background of like wildlife biology and conservation. I guess I saw the whole other side of the program and have learned about that. But like the art side and the art market and that whole thing, I mean, it's all pretty foreign to me. I consider myself like a pretty average Joe. Like I came up just wanting to be a biologist and I was a field tech for eight years. And so, yeah, it's

Katie Burke: it's a it's a steep learning curve with art and like how to how to navigate that and how to market it and logistically it's you know uh it's a it so it's been it's been great but yeah it's definitely a new experience for me well it's interesting because most artists like i would say you're primarily alone and it's an introverted like most of the work is yeah by yourself right and then all of a sudden you're thrown into this very extroverted role to market yourself So it's, it's not, it's very like black and white on what your roles are. There's no real middle ground for those two things.

Chuck Black: Right. Yeah. And as an artist, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of artists probably can relate to that. That's and it's also very important too. So like that's that's I guess what's hard is that most artists are kind of introverted, you know But then if you want to make a career out of it, you have to learn to go against that which yeah, it's tough

Katie Burke: Yeah, that's interesting to think about. But yeah, it's very true. And I feel like with all artists and no matter what, I deal with a lot of carvers and they're the same way. They spend most of their time hunting and carving and then they have to go to these shows and be very extroverted and sell their stuff. And eventually you can get to a point where you don't have to do that as much, but that You've marketed yourself enough that your name is out there that you have a steady client base, right?

Chuck Black: And I think that goes to how much importance it is to focus on your art. around what you're passionate about, because it does make it easier being somebody who's passionate about, say, wildlife, the outdoors, hunting, fishing, you're marketing to those same people. So it's not as difficult to get out in public when you, I mean, it's kind of like your crowd, you know, and they share the same passions. And so, yeah, it is easier, I guess, in that regard.

Katie Burke: Yeah, that makes sense. Like, uh, that's a good advice too, to think about. Cause, um, and one thing I can always say, like, I like talking, doing artists on the podcast because, and we'll get more into this, but it's so easy for y'all to tell, to talk about why you do things because you, you've thought about it a lot. Cause you have to have the passion behind it to continue to do it. Right. If you didn't have it, it would grow boring pretty quickly.

Chuck Black: Yeah. And you feel that. I mean there's definitely many times I would say if you're into this realm for this long where you're trying to make it as an artist that you go through those phases where you start to understand that you can't spend your time doing this because even though it might be desirable. You might have people asking to pay you for it goes against what you're saying like what you're really what you really care about and that I mean that gets really difficult and especially because you're alone all the time and so yeah, I mean that's and that's always what has been my advice to myself is just stick with what you like you love most about why you paint rather than like what you're

Katie Burke: Right. I mean, that makes sense. Yeah, because it's like that with a lot of things. I feel like anything you do for a long time, you're going to have those peaks and valleys and you just have to kind of persevere through them and it'll come through. Yeah.

Chuck Black: And it gets better over time, you know, and I start to understand myself in that way, you know, more through the years. It's definitely gotten easier because I've been able to, I guess, craft how my time is spent and my schedule just based on what I know I've gone through in the past.

Katie Burke: And then, of course, having success helps make that easier. So you can do that. Definitely. All right. So let's go back to the beginning and let's start. So you were born in Minnesota, correct? Yes. Okay. So how did you grow up your whole childhood in Minnesota or how did that?

Chuck Black: I did. Yeah. Split kind of between Wisconsin. We always had a family cabin in Wisconsin. So yeah, you know, I grew up and all the credit goes to my parents just with growing my passion for the the outdoors and for wildlife and appreciating what we have. My father had me in a canoe in the Canadian wilderness north of Minnesota. We have the Boundary Waters and then Quetico is north of there and twice a summer since I was like five years old, we would canoe in, portage in and spend a week, you know, and that's where like my real appreciation for the wilderness and probably like kind of where my obsession of that really took hold. And Once I got that was kind of, I guess, well, before that, I mean, that's just all we did. And on the weekends, my parents were avid archery competitors and hunters, and they had me in the field and at the cabin on the water. And so from a very young age, that was really like all I cared about. And When I got to school age like I just I struggled in school. I wasn't the best at making friends socializing it just wasn't my jam and Artwork like sketching in my my notebooks. That was my way of like escaping the day I'm just bringing my mindset back out to where I wanted to be or looking forward to you know The weekend to come knowing we're gonna go do this or that and so yeah, I mean throughout school I did a lot more sketching in my notebooks than I did note taking and I became like the guy in class that everybody knew to draw caricatures of the teachers. And so that it was like a very it was very much so therapy for me. And that that's what I guess grew my love for artwork at the same time. And however still I wanted to I knew from a young age I wanted to I guess devote my life to conservation. I was fascinated with wildlife. So I went to school for wildlife biology at the University of North Dakota after high school. And then around that time is when people started to take notice in my work and my drawings were getting better and some people would tell me, you know, you could sell that. And I'm like, really? Is right around that time that I opened up an ebay account and I started selling drawings at auction on ebay and they would go for like 50 bucks or 100 bucks, but like As an 18 19 year old like that was I mean you just on high. Yeah, like I just couldn't believe it less like and you know back then like My first job was pushing carts at a grocery store and you're making how much money and then someone pays you a hundred bucks for a drawing. I'm like, no way.

Katie Burke: That's like two days. Yeah, right.

Chuck Black: It definitely motivated me back then. And so then I started to get a lot of people and it was mainly like friends of friends or family friends to commission me for their pet portraits. And so I did a lot of pet portraits and drawings and that's kind of how I had my spending money. really wanted to push that at the same time. So that was growing on the side. And then fast forward, I get out of college and I spent seven years in the field working for, started at Theodore Roosevelt National Park and then went to, and these are all seasonal jobs. I spent the majority of my time at Theodore Roosevelt. I did seven seasons total there. But I also worked for Montana Fish and Wildlife and Parks, Colorado Parks and Wildlife, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Minnesota, the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.

Katie Burke: And so… All park service-related jobs.

Chuck Black: Yeah. Yeah. The two parks, obviously. It was a sage-grouse project in Montana and a mule deer research project in Colorado, and then I still think one of my favorite experiences as far as the topic of today goes to the Fish and Wildlife Service. When I was working there, I worked for the private lands biologists, and we, of course, used duck stamp dollars to help restore, acquire land on private land, and then find funding to restore the water back onto private lands. And so, My job there was to go knock on doors meet the landowners and that's when I got to you know learn the history of the lands Move dirt survey the ground and you know, and then and that like that's my appreciation for the duck stamp program accelerated fast through that experience because It's one thing to hear about how important all this stuff is but when you actually get to see it happen And go through all those processes like it's it's really remarkable what this program does and so um that kind of started a a whole new level of appreciation with myself and the duck stamp and um kind of drove me to to want to try harder with that and so that was that was in I want to say 2012 when I was doing that and so at that time that's when I started to think about my artwork more seriously because my co-workers there and the people around me they started really engaged with my work and that's when I started to to think that you know maybe I could use maybe instead of what I'm doing the artwork could be used as a way to engage people and expose you know maybe people that don't appreciate the things that we all love so much, uh, to get involved or to think about it, even maybe just, even if there's not that much of an intention behind it, maybe just, you know, I thought the simple fact that's getting conversations started around the things that I love could be something. So I, I started to think about my artwork differently during that time. And, and I, that was probably around the time, see, and then it was 2013, I entered the Colorado uh duck stamp and I won that and so that was that was when I Again, it all was setting the stage for me to think about my artwork on a more serious level and uh of course then in 2015 I also won the california duck stamp and I was starting to I was getting a larger collector base and I started to sell more work and so that's in 2015 When I went to, I was working at the Great Smoky Mountains at the time actually. And I went into the biologist's office and I'm just like, I've got to follow this and I've got to try it. So I was kind of like mid-season and he's like, you just got to do you. And so he's supportive and just kind of packed up everything. And I'd been out here to Montana and I, you know, and I liked Bozeman and I'd lived in Billings in central Montana before. So I just thought, Bozeman seems like an art community and like a lot of things happening so let's give it a shot and yeah that's 2015 and I've been here ever since so and then just It's just been a long progression to try and improve what I'm doing and figure out how to tell the stories of the things that I love through that.

Katie Burke: So during that time, did you do any formal art training growing up or any of that time? Or did you just slowly piece it together?

Chuck Black: Pretty much. And I always took You know because I loved I hated school I loved drawing and I always took art classes when I could and you know I took a couple drawing classes in college but yeah a lot of a lot of it was was trial and error and just knowing that I wanted to communicate something and I wanted to I wanted to figure that out for myself and so I I often say that I artwork is never something that was my first passion. I love and I'm passionate about the outdoors and artwork was just like my vehicle of getting that communication across. And so when I, it's hard for me to geek out on like the technicals of creating art and things like that because that's just not What like it really really ignites the fire you know and so yeah it's it's been self taught and i've i've pushed back from a lot of people who have who have tried to help me even though it's it's always well intended and i appreciate it but. Uh, it's, yeah, it's just, it's, it's just one of those things where, you know, when you have your mindset on, on something that, that you're really passionate about, you've, you know, you have that desire to figure it out yourself.

Katie Burke: Well, you know, I have the opposite experiences. I went to school for art and then immediately fell out of it. And I don't know if, like, I don't think I also was good enough to do it. I don't, I, I'm good. I'm not, but I just never thought that I, I don't know. I just kind of quickly realized that maybe that wasn't what I should be doing with the rest of my life. I also doing it in school and it being like a job at that point, like I, that didn't interest me where I think you're going. The way you went into it, the back way, like where you're making, like you started making money pretty quickly. I think that matters a lot because then your motivation is, you have kind of an expectation going in, like you're not just doing it for fun and it's for yourself and then trying to make money because then you get disappointed when you have to do stuff for people you don't want to do, right? But if you start doing that early and making money and doing commission work, then you've already set an expectation that that's just part of the process, right? So I think there is some benefits to that. And I think it's something a lot of artists have to… I think it makes or breaks a lot of people early on. That's either going to be what they decide, okay, I can transition into this mindset and use it to my advantage or I'm just not going to do it for that reason. I'll just do it as a hobby.

Chuck Black: Right. Right. Yeah. And what you're touching on the other side of it is it's very much so like picking a career to have a job where it's Yeah. And when somebody asked me to do a commissioned or custom piece, it's a lot harder for me because it takes what I'm passionate about and turns it into just work, you know, and it's working for somebody else. And yeah, I don't know. I think that's kind of, you're totally right on that though. Yeah.

Katie Burke: Yeah, it's an interesting thing. It does change. There's a transition point. I've talked to quite a few artists who've gone different directions, but yeah, there's definitely this transition point. I have found a lot of people though that end up being successful in art kind of, at least in the wildlife art area, kind of took what they were taught and were like, no, you're wrong. I'm going to do it this way. And then they were successful. They kind of didn't let the formal training inform them. They got what they needed and then they went their own way. And that might just be a, I don't know what you think, but maybe that's just a product of this medium and doing wildlife art. Like it's just not thought of in formal training the same way.

Chuck Black: Yeah. And, and I would say that the majority, probably the majority of people in like wildlife art, it stems because I mean, there's, you know, with people who hunt and fish and camp and recreate outdoors, like it creates such a strong bond and passion. And so when they go into something like artwork, they just know, I love this. I'm super passionate. I'm doing it this way. And so you just have a lot of really passionate people in, in wildlife art and Yeah, formal or traditional fine art, it kind of goes against that a lot of times. And yeah, I've definitely seen like the the, I don't know, the butting of heads between those two realms. And I, yeah, I just probably just, you know, a lot of painters in a more traditional setting probably are more focused on the craft of the artwork and, uh, the nuances of, of making brushwork appear a certain way to communicate through those pigments and, and on and on, which I appreciate and love, but So, it's obvious to me that there's this whole circle of wildlife artists that really are extraordinarily passionate about the outdoors. And I think that probably comes first for a lot of people. And yeah, that's where you see that difference.

Katie Burke: So, I want to go back again a little bit when you're younger. So, did you start hunting young? And what were you hunting when you were young?

Chuck Black: I did. Like I said, I grew up in an archery household, and so it was pretty much It's pretty much just archery, and they had a bow and arrow in my hand since I was two, just barely sticking the target, you know. I grew up passionate for archery along with my parents and that's still to this day. That's, I mean, that's what I absolutely love. And of course, duck hunting was, I did some of that as a kid and with friends growing up before school, early mornings, you know, we'd pick each other up, whoever had the car and the driver's license, and we'd quickly get in as much time we could in the blind, like, you know, a little detour on the way to school and then we'd make it in time. But over the years, that's, It's like meditation with a bow and arrow because it's one of those activities that you can do solo and have just as rewarding experiences if you're doing it with a group of people. I really enjoy that solitude part of it. Archery to me is just the thing that fuels a lot of my thoughts and processes.

Katie Burke: Yeah. So what do you mostly do now with archery? What is your primary game that you're after? How are you doing it? Are you sitting in a stand or are you stalking stuff?

Chuck Black: It's mostly elk, mule deer, hiking the mountains all season. I think last year I want to say I spent 60 days in the field and you know all but all but two days. Thankfully you know I did come back with something but you know the 58 days you come back with nothing. But that's that's that's what I love. I mean it's just Yeah, it's a becoming part of like the circle of life and understanding the process of nature and be becoming a part of that. I think just really deepens your appreciation and understanding for it all. And that's that's what I just love to experience.

Katie Burke: And we don't have a… I'm in Tennessee now, but I grew up in Mississippi and we don't have the archery that way, but we have the turkey hunt. So it has that same… We don't sit in a blind, we chase turkeys. And it's something so rewarding, even though half the time they do something and you don't get what you're after and you can't predict them, but it's very rewarding when you finally do, right? It's something about having to work hard for that. for that angle and then it really gives you appreciation for that they're not just as easy as you think they are. Yeah.

Chuck Black: Yeah, for sure. And of course, you do what's most effective and sitting in a tree stand is most effective for a lot of scenarios with deer and this and this. But like you said, when you're trying to get in on their level and play their game where you're just like, I'm going to go out with my shoes and Hike the ground and try to to to beat them at their own game like that. It's a totally different experience that yeah, it really does Yeah, give you that perspective. Yeah

Katie Burke: You know, I get that and I can see where doing that would go into your art as well because then you're getting to experience the outdoors in a much more personal way than you would if like, and look, there's some things, like there's things about duck hunting. I love like being together in that very early thing when the ducks are coming in and you can't shoot yet. Like that's a magical experience. But then when you're out there by yourself and you're in these long days and you're getting to experience the outdoors in a much more personal way, like where duck hunting is unique in that it's a communal experience, whereas this is much more personal. I can see where that would very much inform art as an artist and someone who I think it's hard to explain to people who whose brains don't necessarily work that way. But when you when you have an artistic brain, I can see where that would fuel a lot of inspiration.

Chuck Black: Yeah. And where you touch on that moment before legal and and in fact, I was I was just that I joined Ducks Unlimited at their booth on Saturday. There was the state duck calling contest. And so I've talked to a lot of people around here and that somebody was just talking about that same thing. It's like it's, it's that first 15 minutes of daylight where you can't see anything and the birds are coming in, you know, and all you can do is just enjoy it. And they, you know, there are a few of them were talking about how it's, it's that moment is what, what is, You know the best part of the day and I think like what you're you're getting at is the exact same thing I think that I experience when I'm by myself and I'm out it's like that feeling that moment of the birds coming in and you can you can hear him but you can't see him really well and they're landing in and out. That to me is like what the entire day can be like in a really good day out in the mountains with your bow and arrow in hand you end up getting absolutely nothing, but you got to just experience the day and Yeah, like it's it's kind of that same that same feeling.

Katie Burke: Yeah, you get you get the chance to yeah expand that moment when you're doing what you're doing, right? The only thing I can really compare it to is I am a trail runner. And when you're out there on the trail by yourself, you can really expand that time outside and get that kind of personal experience with the outdoors. Whereas with duck hunting, yeah, you get kind of that one magic moment, which is, it's magic, don't get me wrong, but you can… I think sometimes we crave to expand those moments, right? Like you want more of it, right? And I think in a lot of ways, wildlife are some… I guess not all, but… A lot of wildlife artists is another that painting is another expansion of that moment, right? Like you're just trying to expand that and give it to somebody who may not necessarily be able to experience it.

Chuck Black: Right. Exactly. And and that's like with my art. There's no painting if there's not the story first. And that's what I'm trying to communicate through the work. And so that's yeah, that's exactly right.

Katie Burke: All right. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, thanks for sticking with us. Welcome back to the show. Again, I have Chuck Black. Okay, so my question, I guess, to kind of transition from when you were younger to now. So let's go to like, how has All right, you mentioned earlier, I guess it was like 2013, 2015, your perspective was changing. Can you speak a little bit more on that? And then maybe let's go into talking about living in Montana and how being there full time has changed what you've been, you've focused on and changed your art in that way.

Chuck Black: Well, prior to that, I was determined to work my way through the ranks to become a wildlife biologist one day. And I had had some offers for longer term positions, which is kind of the goal for many young field techs. But it wasn't in the places that I wanted to be doing really what I wanted. It's very difficult. And so it was kind of right at the time when I got on with the Fish and Wildlife Service that I started to realize that it was going to be a lot harder for the wildlife side of things and that career wise with that. And so then I saw some success. I'd just come off of in 2012 working to restore wetlands and The people at the Fish and Wildlife Service in Fergus Falls, I mean, shout out to them. It's just a wonderful group of people. And if you don't know about Fergus Falls, they have at their wetland district what they call the Prairie Wetlands Learning Center. And it's a learning center on a wma and they've integrated it with the k-12 in the local school district So the kids spend half of their year. I think it's primarily fourth and fifth graders and everything surrounding whether it's math or Social studies this this and this it's all surrounded or based off of like conservation, learning species, identifying, you know, this and that. And they incorporate the outdoors. They incorporate outdoor education with every aspect of their teaching. And so they're regular Fish and Wildlife Service employees, but they're full-time teachers. And they asked me at the end of that season if I would speak to the children for a day about the the junior duck stamp because that's their big project so their big project for each class that comes through is to enter the junior duck stamp and pick a species and write a paper I think maybe about the species they're doing so they get to learn the birds and then enter the contest and so they had me come and speak for a day and the following year I Had won the the california duck stamp and they wanted me to come back and do it again They thought it was really successful And we've been doing that now every year since then so it's I think it's going on 14 15 years and so all at the same time I was starting to realize it was really difficult to make it in the way that I wanted to as a wildlife biologist I started to see some success in my artwork and then people being uh, you know, very open to invite me to help out and volunteer. That got me to start thinking about things on that level as well. And I started to see like the impact that artwork can have, like how much of a powerful tool it is, especially with youth, because they're, I mean, they're so impressionable and all kids just love artwork. I mean, it's the, at that age, especially like fourth and fifth grade, I mean, if you show them a pen and a paper and say doodle something, you know, they'll find something that they love to do. And so I started, all of this started to happen at the same time. And I really started to, just on a deeper level, start to, I guess, question what I was doing in the field. Is this, is this really the path to what I've always wanted to, to spend my time doing? Or is there another way with my artwork? Could I incorporate both? And and yeah, so then then when I decided to finally leave the field and give the artwork a try That I guess all of that was was sort of into play of like maybe I can Incorporate education and artwork and biology and try to merge it all together. Uh, but at at the same time Trying to make it as an artist. You have to you have to make money and you have to figure it out. So it's it became uh It I mean it was a struggle for the first five years or so. And Bozeman is not a cheap place to live.

Katie Burke: No, it's not.

Chuck Black: So I heard there was a when I moved here, I met another artist and he said, you know, the valley here is a great place to be a wildlife artist, but a terrible place to try and make it as a wildlife artist, because we have everything accessible at our fingertips. But it's expensive. It's a very tight-knit circle with the galleries and the fine art scene and it's difficult, you know, and so Luckily at the same time Social media that was starting to take off and I had seen some success with that so I was starting to build like a an email list and a clientele through online And that that helped me. Um but that you know through through all the the challenges I I always knew that that conservation and wildlife and my passion for that kind of took first place in in my life and it it was it it's and it still is today a challenge to balance it all um because i you know i i want to donate my artwork and i want to help out with conservation to do all this but then you've got to figure out how to be a full-time artist and so i guess that's i don't know in a nutshell um the daily struggles of that but Yeah, I don't know. Go ahead.

Katie Burke: I was thinking because I had a graduate school professor who was a book artist and she always said they should make artists get a business degree at the same time. Yeah, right.

Chuck Black: Yeah, definitely.

Katie Burke: It's like the part of being an artist no one realizes is like probably if not like 60% of your job is like doing the business side of things.

Chuck Black: Right. And I struggle with that because it's just not, and I'm sure a lot of artists can relate, it's not what I want to do. You know, it's not what I want to spend my time on. And fortunately, you know, my wife has, Has been very supportive through all this and you know, she's uh, she's always encouraged me just to stick to to what means the most to me, you know, and how I spend my time, but um, yeah financially there's there's There has been better paths that have probably opened up that I've been like, well, but that's, I'm not going to be happy the way I'm spending my time that way. And, and, you know, on and on we go, but.

Katie Burke: Well, I get it. I'm in, I'm a museum curator, so it's not like a very lucrative field either. And not many of us make it. So yeah, it's similar. Yeah. Okay. So how has being in the Montana landscape, like changed your artwork?

Chuck Black: Well, When I, when I left school, it was the first time that I'd really been, you know, I had been out West, but not enough time to really explore and to, to appreciate all this stuff. So, you know, the first experience I had going West was when I, I had my first gig in Western North Dakota in the Badlands. And that really started to open my eyes up to like, wow, like this is just amazing out here. And then my girlfriend at the time lived in Billings. And so I would spend my time going from Medora to Billings in central Montana and then we'd go explore the mountains. And so I started to get an introduction to just how vast and how beautiful it is out this direction. And so then when I came here, I started to spend a lot more time in, you know, in the back country and in the wilderness and that it in the same way we talk about like the early morning with ducks and the the experience of of you know lugging a bow and arrow around all day I started to really crave that experience and I wanted to it got me to to think about what I'm trying to communicate through the artwork on a deeper level and the stories that I wanted to try and craft through all that so I would say it's it's really changed my My understanding of of maybe myself and what's most important to me in what i'm trying to communicate to the world and I I went from wanting to paint portraits of animals duck stamps More simple subject matter to all of a sudden I started I found myself starting to do just pure landscapes and my fascination with what's out there started to find its way into my artwork and I started to change a lot of what I paint and I think that's still changing but it's definitely altered what I want to paint. It used to be all about the animal or all about the subject matter and now It's changed my perspective to wanting it to be more about the experience. And wildlife, of course, is part of that, but it's, yeah, that's kind of how it's… More of an overview versus a pin, yeah, like a focus point. Right. And now, and I went really far to where I, I didn't paint much wildlife beyond entering the duck stamp for a good couple of years. I was just painting landscapes and things like that. And I get, you know, a lot of people reach out to me like, why aren't you doing wildlife anymore? And, uh, yeah, so it sent me on a path of exploration with my art for sure. And now I'm starting to go back the other direction. I feel like I, you know, I learn what what I want to learn or I start to feel like I'm hitting maybe a wall of what experiences I can gather from that side of things and now I'm starting to think more about wildlife again and shifting back in that direction and thinking well could I combine it together and come up with a a way of creating artwork that to me is like creatively the best of both worlds.

Katie Burke: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And then well, you're also combining what you've your experiences and what you've learned along the way. So it's your art is growing as you've grown, correct? Like you're not just you're combining that. And eventually, you know, it will probably change. multiple times through your career. Like it's not, this isn't the end of where it's going to go. Right. I guess it's just hard for a lot of people to be open for that too, you know, like we get stuck in what we know.

Chuck Black: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's, I learned from, from a very young age with my artwork that you know, the experimentation part of it and the challenging things that you attempt as an artist, that's where the educate, like the self taught, you don't learn any lessons by doing what's comfortable, of course. And so every time you pick up a new medium and it goes terribly wrong, that's when you learn the most and that's when you can take away the most for like the next thing that you're going to try. And so, That that's been and when I think about like the the duck stamp over the years every year it to me The entering the duck stamp is like a test of your own abilities and whatever that means to you personally as the artist that That was kind of what it represented to me is that I would find myself doing running all these experiments through the the year the course of the year and I'm failing at this and failing at that because I'm trying to mix this with this or try a new technique. And then you take all of those, those micro lessons and then try to apply it to one painting and see how it fares in the duck stamp contest. And I felt like I've been through that. Once I decided to take this to a full time, that's when I really got more serious about Trying to progress with the techniques and the the processes in my work So I felt like i've been and then you know, of course Not see like not that I haven't been successful over the last 10 years. I mean, I I feel very fortunate that I found some very devoted collectors of mine who've become friends and they've supported me through the way and I've you know, I continue to find new people to Support what I do But on a personal level, like I've never quite got it to where I want it to be. And now that I've won the duck stamp contest, after that happened, I was kind of like, I took a moment where I'm stepping back like, wow, like, so like, maybe I need to stop thinking about it, experimenting and, and going, you know, way off the charts and what I do with my My technical process and maybe try to focus in on what's working for me. And so now I'm at this moment where I feel like I I I want to step into what I Maybe will be my life's work so to speak where you know because that was always the goal was to win the duck stamp, of course and and I Yeah, so it's very validating, but then at the same time, it gets you to think like, well, so then what are you going to do personally on a personal level with your work now?

Katie Burke: Well, yeah, I mean, and anybody can relate to this, right? Like, I think about, it makes me think about like, I don't know, when you're a kid and you have your goal set on getting this degree, and then you get that degree, and then you have your goal set on this job, and then you get than maybe getting married or having a family. And you keep having these goals, right? You keep reaching and reaching and then you get them. And you're like, well, am I happy? Like, did I get it? Did I got what I wanted? Now, what do I do with it? And I think it's a struggle for everyone. I don't think anyone doesn't have this struggle. Like, you get what you want. And then you're like, now what do I do? Like, am I happy with what I want? Is it fulfilling in the way that I thought it would be fulfilling? And then I think what the end goal is, is like, you have to learn to be okay with being a little comfortable, but you also have to learn to find other things to reach for, right? Like, that's why we all have random hobbies that we do, right? That's why I run. I run all these stupid races so that I have something to work for all the time. It's just a small thing of work for. But yeah, I think that's true. So you've focused on this duck stamp for 10 years. You got it. Now you have to think, okay, I got it. And you can't enter again for what, three years? Right. Yeah. So you have three years to think about, to contemplate your next life choice, basically.

Chuck Black: Yeah, I mean, like for real, because that's because it's become my life. And I've, you know, and that's been a personal choice of like, I'm going to make artwork my life. And that's, I like, that's 100% correct. And like, now, you stand back and you're like, well, then what really matters to me now, you know, because that was always like, That was always something in front of you, you know, like the the wire over your head that you're chasing after the thing that's hanging in front of you. And now you're like, OK, I got it. And you start questioning all these things. But it's been really good for me because it's gotten me over the last eight months to really think deeper about what I do. And I found a lot of personal success in that of just questioning exactly what you're describing.

Katie Burke: Yeah, it is. It's interesting. It's a fun… I think we all can very much relate to that feeling. No matter what it is, everyone's got something they've chased. But I kind of want to talk about… We can talk about more about your YouTube channel. But I want to talk… I was watching one of them recently when I was getting ready for this. And I think I was reading another interview. I'm probably melding multiple interviews into one thought. You had kind of mentioned like you had done some plein air stuff and you don't like it. You have taken journals when you go out and ultimately in the video you had decided basically that when you're out there you don't want even a camera. Like you'd rather just be in this space. I found that very interesting and I am curious on the process that led you to that discovery and how that changed for you.

Chuck Black: So I had never painted outdoors prior to, let me think, so my last season as a wildlife tech, my duty is primarily where were to, they, they, they wanted me for something else, but they had to hire me with funding for bat research. So, you know, I get there is that the great smoky mountains and they say, okay, well, because we're using this money, we have to have you do some work for this bat research that we're doing. And so my duties were to sit in a chair for anywhere from, uh, three to four hours of my eight hour shift. and stare at maybe like a 12 or 15 inch hole, which was one of the largest expanse of caves that they have, observe if there's any bats that come out of it, because the research was for white-nosed bat syndrome, and they're worried about bats that are laying on the ground, they want to know are there any Are there any bats that are exhibiting these symptoms that we know of and the only way we can do that is to have you just sit there Stare and if you and you know, and so my job was if you see a bat write it down And I never I that so I did that for like three months. I never saw a bat and Like about like halfway through that I was asking uh My supervisor like well, could I get like one of those like paint boxes? And, you know, I'll do it like maybe I could like work on some artwork while I'm there. And I'm like, I think it would help me stay awake because I'd be like looking around at what I'm painting. And so they agreed to that. And that was the first time that I started painting outdoors and paint in, you know, in plain air. And what I realized through that initial experience was how valuable it is to paint outside because it's incredibly hard. And so it challenges everything that you've learned as an artist and I came off of that and I moved here and that was my first realization at the same time when I decided to do this and come to Montana that I needed to continue painting outside and trying to just learn as much as I can. And even to this day, that's so that's where it started. But even now, I still realize the importance of that. And I try to do it as much as I possibly can. But what I've realized through the years in what you're talking about is that in the same way to me, a bringing a camera into the field is a distraction from just taking in the moment, bringing a A paintbox and an easel is also a distraction from the moment. Everything's a distraction from being present in that moment and absorbing it all. If you're looking at a panel or if you're looking at a screen of a camera and you're trying to take pictures, it's all a form of distraction that might be helpful or beneficial, but it It does reduce my ability to to take in the things that I really want to experience and so It's hard for me to sit there for a couple hours and work on a painting outdoors when I could have taken that to a couple hours And go hike five miles and go see what I can find go, you know, you have encounters with animals along the way and so that's I'm I did a lot of, there was a period of time when I did a lot of plain air painting outdoors on location, but, but now it's kind of, it's, I've gravitated away from that and I've started to realize I have to find a balance because when I do that, I'm missing out on the things that I love most as well. And so, but I know how beneficial it is.

Katie Burke: Yeah, would you say that, because this is kind of what I think about when you say that, whereas like if you're doing the plein air, you have a camera, you're the distraction of what it's not. Because you can take the picture, right? You can take the picture home or you can paint and you can study it when you get home. But what you're distracting yourself from, the present part of it, is that emotional connection you get and those other senses you're using, right? Like when you're just focusing on what you see, through and getting it down either through the camera or painting, you're missing out on the broader experience that you can get from just being present, right? You're, you're focusing on one sense versus all five.

Chuck Black: And yeah, exactly. And it's, I mean, in terms of the comparison of, of painting in a studio versus painting outdoors, like of course, painting outside is, Much more rewarding and fulfilling and it does deepen your connection with what it is you're painting a lot more than being in the studio but at the same time if you look at it from the other perspective like you're saying it. It's, you know, you got to find a balance for yourself.

Katie Burke: And you're right. It's important to do because it teaches you to work faster with something, right? You have a limited moment of time to capture light in a certain way. And I think it teaches you a lot about light that you wouldn't get in the studio because you realize how it changed the quickness of time and that you have to get something down versus when you're in the studio, you have all the time in the world, right? So, I think it pushes your technique and your style to… It teaches you skills and pushes that technique to make you think quicker on your feet, where then you take… Later, those things will become easier in the studio, right? Like you're just learning. It's just doing something faster in a way to…

Chuck Black: And it's all I think as far as from an artist standpoint, you know, you just have to know yourself best. And for some artists, I mean, that is what gets them fired up. And for me, you know, it's it's everything else about the outdoors that has led me to wanting to create. Outdoor subjects. So, you know, I just I I'm understanding myself through the year, you know as we go through the years more and more and I just understand like the the importance for myself and in creating those experiences and those stories and it definitely Creates an additional challenge for me to really Be all in on that, you know, and but you know if you're there, like I said, I have a hard time Really like geeking out about the technical technical aspects of painting because again that was always like what I need to learn not what I really want to learn it's what I have to learn in order to communicate what I want.

Katie Burke: Right.

Chuck Black: But that's that's the work. That's the work part of it for me. But for other artists, that's their love. So, I mean, I guess it's all about understanding yourself.

Katie Burke: All right. So let's talk. So we get on. I want to talk a little bit about your YouTube channel because it is unique. And I guess to start before that, I show I have a pre question to that. So because I would say what's unique about your YouTube channel is you're very honest and you offer quite a resource for people that are learning to do this, right? So pre that, did you have anyone that inspired your work? Like when you were starting and things of that nature that you look toward to emulate at all? Did you have anything of that?

Chuck Black: So when I was a kid, you know, we had the shopping mall right, you know, close by and that's where the barbershop was. And of course that was back in the early 90s when the art print galleries were everywhere. Like you go into any shopping mall and they didn't even sell original artwork. It was like prints and They were everywhere, you know? And so the barbershop was in the mall and right next door was the print gallery. And every time I'd go get my hair cut, as soon as we'd finish, my parents would be like paying for it. And I'd go running into the art gallery. And of course, back then it was literally nothing but Terry Redlin. There was the Hottmans were starting to become known because they had all of a sudden simultaneously started winning duck stamps. And so you'd see their artwork. And I found myself as a young kid just standing there like, like lost in Terry Redland paintings.

Katie Burke: And that's just what… I was going to ask you, I wrote down his name because your stuff is very, yeah, the way you portray light is very essence of him. Yeah.

Chuck Black: And that's, I mean, as a kid, I was just enamored with his work. And it was, of course, in Minnesota, it was everywhere, you know, but, and so, yeah, there was definitely, a lot of a lot of uh inspiration I took through his work but and when you're starting out I guess kind of the the first thing you start to do is you kind of just copy the things that you love and you and you start just emulating the things that inspire you and so I did that a lot and that's that's where you see a lot of similarity um but then As i've grown through the years, you know what i've realized about someone like him is he was He is he was the best of the best when it came to telling a story and you can debate debate his painting All day, but he knew how to communicate stories and storytelling and that I think is what I was most uh drawn why I was most drawn to his work and not necessarily the, the way he painted and, you know, I find myself now I have this desire to do something completely different, but it was like his communication abilities. That's what I realized what I think I, I, what resonated with me the most. So yeah, that, that inspired me early on for sure. And, and then, so in 2015, I had a Facebook page and that did, that was starting to do really well. And, you know, you I'm looking online. It's like how to start a business online. What do you need to do? And all of the advice is like, you need a YouTube, you need a Facebook, you need to put content out there. And I'm like, OK, how do I do this? And I set up a camera off to the side and I'm like, well, I'm just going to film the painting. And then I guess I can like fast forward it into a time lapse and then post that and some of those did like really well on Facebook. And that was like my initial exposure to like, holy, holy cow, like that. This has potential to get eyeballs on what I'm doing. And so I just started taking those same things and like, well, I'm going to just post those same videos to YouTube and. I started doing that and then a couple of them took off one day. I remember I was camping in the back of my pickup truck and I remember like opening my phone and and I had like all these notifications and it was just random and I'm like what is going on and I'm looking and the YouTube video that I had posted you know it's just like a really poor time lapse and this is I think uh probably in like early 2016 or something like that it you know it had like 12,000 views overnight or something like what And I got the notification from YouTube that's like, you're eligible to be monetized or whatever. And I was like, no way. And like, so I like in the back of my pickup, I'm like going through the application thing on my phone and like, Oh, you know, hit submit. And then later that day it said you were accepted and you can start earning money. And I'm like, okay. And, um, At the same time, that's when it was probably financially was like the biggest struggle of this whole last 10 years. So I started to see success with YouTube and I was not seeing success in the physical market. And I also, you know, am very aware that I wasn't ready and my artwork is still in development. And I'm trying to find my identity, I guess, so to speak, but the YouTube. So the next six months, I kept posting the time lapses and they started doing really well. And then everybody would leave comments like, you know, can you, can you kind of talk about any of this stuff that you do and help us out a little bit? So I, Started posting a couple of those and then they started to get traction and I started to see like a nothing big but a legitimate paycheck from youtube and that that was In the beginning that was just the motivation i had was this can help me thrive and the any educational content that i mean it was just obvious that there was a lot of desire for that so i started to just talk about what i did over the time lapses i post and. I got a little more bold and I tried doing like, you know, some in person where this is the painting and I'm going to, you know, paint it here with you. And all of that was just my hope that it would help me succeed financially. And then that that grew over the years. And then, you know, I So yeah, it's been an interesting journey with YouTube. And then now, going back to our conversation before about this last year and starting to question everything, I also start questioning, you know, is my time that I'm spending on YouTube, is that valuable to me? And is that really important in the long run of things? And so now the YouTube, I'm starting to see it as a way to like video journal my experience through artwork. And, um, I'm really trying to not back off of it, but back off of, of trying to get views or trying to get success. And, you know, I just really want to just talk about my work. And I've, I've found that journaling, you know, physically in a, in a field book is, has been really helpful for me on like a, In all the things we talked about over this last year and you know, and then just um Reciting those journal entries i'm finding that artists are finding a lot of help in that a lot of people who aren't Into artwork are finding that interesting as well. So, um, that's that's kind of uh Where i'm at now with it and you know what I want to keep sharing

Katie Burke: Yeah. All right. So I have one question in that is so during that time, which I think everyone has kind of those times where you're like, you know, you're not necessarily being as successful as you would like at what your end goal is, right? That struggle period. Do you have any advice for someone like an artist going through that period of trying to transition into it being their job?

Chuck Black: Yeah. And well, it's, it's hard because when you talk about the business of an artist, I think what's practical advice can also go directly against what's important to you as an artist. And so you can give advice to make money online as an artist, but how is, what's, how's that going to impact your mental health? How is that going to impact, you know, longterm? So, I mean, my first advice for artists and that I, And I heard this a long time ago somewhere is that like the most important thing an artist can have is not your talent Not your ability. It's it's your own perspective because Although criticism and critiques from the people around you is good it can also alter what you do and if you're constantly changing based on the opinion of other people then like you lose your your own self-identity and I think long term, that's the most damaging thing that can happen to an artist. And so if you want to think about long term success, you have to maintain your own personal perspective and that can't be influenced by other people. But then at the same time, that's not necessarily the best advice financially if you're just getting started as an artist. But practically speaking, the business of an artist, the number one thing still to this day is an email list. And that that's where where I found the most of my success online.

Katie Burke: Awesome. OK, so I've had you for a long time now. So and we didn't get to all my questions, but that always happens. So before we go, is there anything we didn't talk about that you want to talk about? Like, did you have anything you want to touch on?

Chuck Black: So the one thing that I really want more people to think about is getting the kids in their life, whether it's their own or other, involved in the junior death stamp program. over this last year I've talked to a lot of people who have been to all these different events and it seems like everywhere you go the commonality in conversation that comes up is how are we going to ensure the future of this program and retain the art aspect of it and you know we We do everything we can to try and tackle these issues that we all care about as outdoorsman but where I, my experience with going back to the Prairie Wetlands Learning Center every year. and getting to see how kids really connect with artwork and how much of a powerful tool that is that can be lead to the introduction of conservation learning about the species. I mean it they are the future and I think it's good to be concerned about current issues what are we going to do about it but we have to not forget that that it all starts with education and especially from a young age and so I've come to realize over the years that the value that the Junior Duck Stamp Program has and I mean, whether you're a parent, you can get your kid involved just between you two or whether you are a teacher or the teacher that your kids have. Just go to them. Anybody can do it. It's a great way to educate about conservation and all the things we love. And I've seen personally every year the impact that it has on kids. And the teachers there, they now have a picture of me up on their wall with all the other famous naturalists. I'm like, this is our own naturalist. I'm like, But it's it's insane to see that response and I got an email from one of the teachers this spring and she said we let the kids choose what they want their final project to be at the end of of our semester together and like five of them chose to write their final project about me and I just showed up for one day and but like the it's a lasting impact that these kids have when they see you know, just artwork is a powerful tool. So that's just one thing that I want everybody to think about.

Katie Burke: The Junior Duck Stamp Program is… Yeah, that's a good one. So yeah, you never know what will spark a kid to, like, change their trajectory. Like, it's usually something small that you don't realize. So, with your experience with the Prairie Wetlands Learning Center, what was that like to then get to judge this past year after dealing with that for a few years and now getting to actually judge the competition? What was that like for you?

Chuck Black: It's very rewarding and it's humbling. The artwork that makes it to the final group of if it was 52 or 53 entries. They have every state, but then I think, um, like Puerto Rico maybe can enter or some other places. Uh, so there was like 52 paintings and it's, it's insane how good these kids get. And some of them are really young too. And so it's inspiring for sure. And, um, I got to meet this year's winner, Emily, and, you know, and she had a very similar story where she said, well, This is just what my teacher has all our students do every year And you know, I don't think they don't need to have a an outdoor background It bridges the gap between hunters and non-hunters and understanding proper wildlife management and what's important for conservation and how that's… And then, of course, the success of that program then helps with the education as well, right?

Katie Burke: Because then you're not only just teaching them about conservation, you also get to show that it's successful, right? This is a very successful conservation program.

Chuck Black: Right. And that's what I've learned is that storytelling with artwork, you know, that's probably one of the most important aspects to get people to resonate with your art. It's your ability to storytell. And the Duck Stamp program, it might be the most successful conservation story of all time. And so it's a story that these kids get excited about, I think. And yeah, it's been really cool to see. Yeah. Yeah. And it's been awesome to be a part of that and to meet everybody behind the duck stamp office. Awesome.

Katie Burke: All right. Well, thank you, Chuck, for coming on the show. I appreciate you spending time with me. I'll have to have you on again because I have like a million more questions we didn't get to. All right.

Chuck Black: Sounds good.

Katie Burke: Thank you, Chuck, for coming on the show. Thanks to our producer, Chris Isaac, and thanks to you, our listeners, for exploring wetlands and waterfowl conservation.