Ducks Unlimited Podcast

Katie Burke: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. This is your host, Katie Burke. And today on the podcast, I have call maker, Ron Gould. Thank you for coming on the show, Ron.

Ron Gould: I appreciate you guys having me on.

Katie Burke: This is exciting because I haven't done a call maker in a little bit. It's been a little bit. And I was trying to think, who haven't I done? And I remembered you. And luckily I reached out to Rick Milligan and he had your number. So it worked out real good.

Ron Gould: Yeah. So it was, yeah, I was excited for that.

Katie Burke: So usually where we start, since you haven't been on the show before, we'll just kind of get your background. So I'm guessing hunting and stuff came before call making, my guess?

Ron Gould: Yep, yeah, absolutely. I've always had to love the outdoors and hunting in general. I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where here in Illinois that, you know, offers me lots of opportunity here in Fayette County for lots of hunting. One being we have the largest body of water in state Illinois, known as Carlisle Lake, which gave me ample opportunity to waterfowl hunt and such. So yeah, it's like I said, I was just blessed to have a good place, you know, early on. or hunting and such and out being an outdoor enthusiast and then yes that that kind of led me right into at some point all back in the late 90s early 2000s where I had taken an interest in potentially making some of my own calls and actually started making some calls at that point and like saying it's went on since

Katie Burke: Yeah. So who introduced you to hunting and the outdoors?

Ron Gould: Boy, I was fortunate enough to have lots of friends and family that actually had ground and such that I can't remember any one in particular, but there was multiple, multiple people that I got hooked up with and actually did a lot of different hunting with.

Katie Burke: Kelly Nelson So, did you primarily start off with duck hunting or did you kind of make your way into duck hunting? How did that work for you? I mean, in Illinois, it's a little different because it's a lot of it there, but…

Ron Gould: You know, I started out back in the early 70s, we didn't have as much game as what we have now. And, you know, the state of Illinois didn't introduce turkeys into the state until, like, 73. And along about 78, 79, I started hunting Southern Illinois turkey hunt. That was one of my my big things, and has always been a passion of mine. So I kind of started out actually going into the turkey call side, making turkey, and that continued for quite a while. Again, I did that prior to probably the early 2000s or so. I ended up, we were at that time, waterfowl hunting, deer hunting, so on and so forth, but it kind of led me towards the duck hunting side. And as I, like I said, progressed in my scratching around with the different calls, I made my way to the internet, which came about and found a few old online forums. One being the custom call makers online. And that led me to a whole new world, honestly. It was a whole new world of individuals that were like-minded. It just kind of stemmed from there.

Katie Burke: Yeah, that's interesting because most people, I wouldn't say their intro to hunting would be turkey hunting. That would be a much different… Because turkey hunting is not easy, right? So that's usually not most people's interest. That's interesting.

Ron Gould: I'm sure, again, my group of friends at that time and people that I was around, that was one thing that we did. And it's funny because early on, it was more of a camping trip as opposed to turkey hunt because there just wasn't many.

Katie Burke: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And I don't know the answer to this, and this is, you would know. Is it, because they're very different, but is it easier to make a turkey call versus a duck call? Because you're doing, I'm guessing when you were doing, were you doing box calls or slate calls to start?

Ron Gould: How are you getting into- Mainly slate calls to start and work my way through the various types of calls. Again, you're comparing apples and oranges. Yeah, they're very different. Very different. You know, the duck call side, there's so many variances involved when it comes to the tone board side.

Katie Burke: Yeah, because you're dealing with air, right? Like you're not having… Correct. Yes.

Ron Gould: And an old adage has always been, I remember, is everything affects everything. So anytime you do something to a duck call tone board, it will affect another part of that tone board and you in turn They're constantly working on that tone board, trying to produce a particular sound. So yeah, the comparisons, it's the same way with a box call on turkey hunting. I mean, you take a little too much off here and you've ruined it.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I think a box call would be the closest because a slate call, you know, it's so different and like you, your striker kind of matters more than your piece of slate. Like it's interesting because I feel like people throw straight out strikers more than anything when it comes to a slate call.

Ron Gould: No doubt strikers make a difference, but I mean, don't let anybody fool you in the fact that on a slate coal, the internals make a difference too. There's a lot of variables as far as the measurements and such on the internals. So it varies as well. So again, there's similarities between duck and turkey coals, but they're different totally.

Katie Burke: So when you, so you start making turkey calls, are you looking, are you being taught by anyone or mentored by anyone? How are you learning how to do that?

Ron Gould: Again, no, you're just, you're basically, you're looking at something that you've had or you're going to make something in your shop similar to that. I mean, that's what it initially started as. And when I say that eventually I came around to the CCO website and that forum, now it opens up a whole new world in a sense. You've got other people sharing some information in regards to how they approach making calls. Different ways and it was eye-opening at that point and then really the interest took from there. It was like, okay Yeah, I understand that's why didn't I think of that you have a lot of those moments, you know, and at that point Yes, it started opening up some doors to some mentors, you know some people that Once you built some rapport with those folks, they realized that you were serious in what you were doing. Those guys were willing to share some information with you and help you along. Unfortunately, in this day and age, all that information, a lot of people jump on the internet. and find stuff on YouTube, so on and so forth. They do it all and they're like, oh, look at me, look at me. Well, there was people that came before that that actually, and I never want to forget the fact that those were the people that helped me along. And there was information later, but a lot of people had to put that information out there. I just, unfortunately, sometimes I think, Some people just take it for granted. Hey, I look at me, I'm a call maker and don't realize all the steps prior to what they've learned, you know, or somebody had to do the groundwork.

Katie Burke: Right. Okay. So I'm going to ask a question a little farther back. So speaking of like the skills to even start, so did you, before even going into Turkey College, did you work Were you handy? Did you work in wood at all? What made you think to even try? Because some people wouldn't even attempt that.

Ron Gould: Right. No, absolutely. I always had an interest in woodworking. I mean, it goes all the way back to we had At our school, fortunately, we had shop classes and advanced classes in woodworking. And I was involved in some of that at an early age. And you brought that interest along to this. And then as I got older, I had a garage and bought tools and so on and so forth and started tinkering more than anything early on. Once I got like I said involved with some of the people online I had an opportunity at that point where I like said Made some friends and was invited to actually go and go to these other people's shops and spend time um, you know on the turkey call side, I always remember and i'll name drop a little bit here, but larry sir, larry grasser was an absolute I mean, this guy, his work ethic, the amount of calls he produces, and his knowledge of the turkey call and such is just outstanding. And he was nice enough to share some of that with me and other call makers that he'd got to know. And we've actually gone to his place and had these weekends get togethers and made calls throughout the weekend. that progressed to where, I mean, I had Wes Townsend, Wes Townsend, super call maker, invited me and other call makers over the years to come to his place and he taught, you know, basically a whole session on building calls and we went over lots and lots of different things. Then you have later on some of the CCO website people got together and did a call makers get together in Kansas City with Aaron Wingert. He was kind enough to invite us in to his home and his shop and multiple call makers would meet there on a two to three day weekend. And we would share ideas and ways that we worked on things and that each of us, it would build your knowledge base and Progressively, you know, you get a little better here and there. A lot of that stuff by having those people, you know, they've been willing to share with you.

Katie Burke: Yeah, and I'm sure like, and this is the thing we've talked about on here a lot because of, as you said, like the YouTube generation that being able to handle and see versus just watching, like the differences, it's huge. It's not a little bit of a difference. It's a huge difference to be able to actually hold something and handle it and see how people are doing it and in person.

Ron Gould: Absolutely. I mean, there was no replacing hands on experience. I mean, when you're there and you're doing it, just the little intricacies that people.

Katie Burke: you know how you're holding your tools when you're turning so on and so forth that you might have missed on your own somebody else might point out and it again you have this light bulb moment like oh well why hadn't i thought of that exactly yeah it makes sense that i don't have i when you say that it reminds me of um i painted for a long time and i remember i held my brush apparently i hold my pencil wrong too didn't know that apparently my kindergarten teacher didn't teach me the correct way to hold a pencil but um And I was painting, and I was painting something very small and intricate, and she told me to hold my brushes away so I could stick my pinky out and rest it on the other part of the canvas to balance so that I'd have a steadier hand. And I remember thinking that, because I held my pencil wrong, I couldn't do that. It wasn't natural. And I remember thinking when she taught me, I was like, well, that makes so much sense. then now you're steadier, right? And that's, I don't think I would have ever gotten there without someone literally taking the brush and moving my hand. Sure. Absolutely. And that's such a simple thing that you would never catch or, or you would see someone do online and you wouldn't under, you just, oh, they just hold it funny. Like you wouldn't know that it was a reason behind the way they were holding it.

Ron Gould: Absolutely, yes. I was fortunate enough to meet some really good guys that were willing to share. When you talk with some of the older guys, back in the day, that was the way a lot of these guys made their living and a lot of people didn't want to share. Any information in regards to how they did certain things because I felt as though there might be a threat to them. I think um, so You didn't have as much information shared early on and there's still a certain point at that I mean Like I mentioned earlier unless if someone just comes to you and show me how to do this or whatever You don't have some sort of rapport or know that that individual is truly serious about being involved in this You're maybe not likely to give them all the stuff you you kind of like to have them work their way through some of it themselves, so they have a little understanding before you just start drawing. Because again, maybe they wouldn't understand, like you say, on the finger, you know, the canvas, I'd understand initially, but in time, because… I agree.

Katie Burke: And it's like, I think it's like that with a lot of things, you know, like when you're trying to learn a skill, like you're not going to go… People are impatient. They want to, like, I mean, I can just compare it to my son. So, like, with drawings, he always wants me to teach him how to do things. He wants to draw something really complicated, right? But he can't. So, yes, we have to start off with, like, small things. And he doesn't want to do that because he wants to do the thing he deems to be more fun. So, but you can't do that thing unless you go, you learn how to do the basics. You just have to, it's the only way it goes.

Ron Gould: Well, I think that's the basic part of our culture. We've got everybody wants it now type culture. I want to have this now. And some stuff takes a little more time. You have to work through it.

Katie Burke: So I can't remember who it was, but this reminds me of this, and I can't remember who was talking about it. I think it was a decoy guy, but he was saying it's so much easier to teach, to start with kids because they have more, or young people because they have more, they are willing to fail. They're not as upset about not getting it right the first time. He says when he gets an adult that wants to try to carve, If they don't get it right on the first go, a lot of the times they will quit, they won't continue. But is it the same?

Ron Gould: Yeah, a lot of adults have preconceived notions about where things should be in their own mind, as opposed to what maybe they should be taught, some of that earlier stuff like you're saying.

Katie Burke: You go through the turkey calls and into the duck calls through those online forums. And at what point… All right, so can you walk me through your transition in from… So through the calls, were you doing decorative stuff through the turkey calls or did that not start happening until you started with the duck calls?

Ron Gould: I actually, it mainly started once I ventured into the waterfowl side. And that came about, oh, 5.06. My son had graduated high school. Him and I, best of buds as far as hunting muddies, and we spent a lot of time waterfowl hunting together and such. And the cold making for me at times is an extension to the season so duck season's over all darn well what could I do now well It kind of led into well during the off season make some calls, you know So I I think a lot of guys do that you you turn around and have some down time So you're making calls and my first and foremost thing was to make calls that sounded good Um, and you know again back to that tone board everybody knows that's that's actually what produces and I was curious to know with you know, how that how to approach that what to do to make it and it's still a puzzle to me sometimes when I'm working on calls and different woods and stuff to try to make something because it seems to me I can do measurements exactly the same on two different woods and get two different sounds and in studying and doing that pursuing that side of it um I Ended up talking with again some people on those online forums and there were some shows one being the real foot so down at Sandburg, Tennessee the real foot show which is coming up actually and I felt as though yeah that that's something that I want to attend and you know talk to some people about again the sound and that particular Show is all about sound So anybody that enters a contest they don't care what it looks like. It's the sound that it produces so again, I uh Started making a few just wanted to see where I compare, you know with other call makers and my sound and the things that i'm doing so you enter into the contest and vote for the best and uh again kind of fell into that and hooked up with more people, different people, and actually talked with those folks about what their philosophy was in regards to tone boards and such, and kind of incorporated some of that stuff, and then started competing a little more in the sound side at Real Foot and for making, you know, the calls at Real Foot and, you know, all about sound, I gradually made the step towards doing a little more decorative stuff, which I had always enjoyed artwork and so on and so forth. And that was an interest of mine as well. So I kind of led into the decorative side after doing some of this, you know, the sound side.

Katie Burke: Okay, so I have questions about the sound. So my first question is, at Real Foot, do you have to blow your own call for the sound or do the judges do it? How does that work by judging for sound?

Ron Gould: Sure. So what they do is they have a panel of judges. You have those judges, it's cool to me, they're sitting there on the banks of the real foot lake, you know, and then you have a series of call guys that actually blow the calls. So one guy might have a division, let's say the natural wood division, and it will be his task, tough sometimes depending on the amount of entries, but he will try to run the same type of

Katie Burke: Yeah, like doing the call competition, like the same, I can't remember what it's called, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly. A routine, it's basically kind of like a routine, yeah.

Ron Gould: That's it, that's what I was looking for. He will have the task of actually running the call routine similar, he tries to do it the same with every call. And then the panel of judges listening to that call will go ahead and judge from that point. They have a criteria they go by as far as a point system. Does that answer it for you?

Katie Burke: Yeah, that answers my question because I was just thinking, how does that work? Because that makes the most sense because you could have a really good call, right? But you might not be the best caller. Yes.

Ron Gould: Absolutely and you know that that is across the board I mean for the most part I shouldn't stand near a stage let alone be on the stage for a calling contest. I enjoy calling but I'm never going to be On the stage at Stuttgart, Arkansas doing a routine, you know. I say this to younger callmakers, I'm like, well, don't let that cause you not to do this. It would be similar to me. I like to shoot the basketball, but I'm never going to be Michael Jordan, you know. It's similar. If you enjoy doing this and the call making, do it to the best of your ability and try to do your personal best and go from there. You don't have to think that your call's going to ultimately end up winning the world's at Stuttgart.

Katie Burke: Yeah. So how does that affect I'm guessing, though you can have the ear and not be able to call, I guess, at the same time, but how do you, when you're going through making the process and you're testing your call, how do you know? What are you listening for?

Ron Gould: In my call making, I know enough. To know how some things should say you can't well backing up you can't hardly make on a working class call most guys will tell you that you can't hardly make a call that will do everything from your low end all the way to the high end. There's calls that you make that are a little better for the low end, and there's calls that will hail call like crazy, like some of the stuff you would hear at Stuttgart. For me, I try to find something in between, something that you can get down and do the quacks, and yet you can hit a little bit of a highball ring to that call. And again, I know enough to do that with my stuff. For me to run a whole routine for somebody, I'm not your guy in that case.

Ron Gould: Oh, that makes sense.

Ron Gould: Okay. And again, those guys that do this at RealFoot, they're qualified to do it. Those guys do well. They do a good job and they can run a call. And calls are different. So they're capable changing up a little bit with how they approach that call with their air to make that call run. And they do the best they can with what they're given at that point, and then the judges choose from that point.

Katie Burke: Okay, and I'm guessing like there's rounds so you they would get if something makes it on they do it again sort of situation?

Ron Gould: Yes, yeah and what they'll do is they'll run all of them they have a point system once that they're all run if there's any tie breakers that need to be done they have a tiebreaker system that breaks that. And what they do is they take the top call from each division, four divisions. There's usually an open, I believe, a metal reed, natural wood, and acrylic. And the winners from those four divisions go against one another, and the judges choose the best of show from where they've ran those.

Katie Burke: Does certain coals win best of show more often?

Ron Gould: Richard D.: I used to say that. I used to feel as though you found a natural wood coal doing well early on when I started, and I don't believe that's the case anymore. You'll see coals come from mainly the three divisions of acrylic, your natural wood, and your open class. That's usually where they'll come from. Kelly J.: Interesting.

Katie Burke: All right. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hi everybody, welcome back. I'm here with Ron Gold. So you primarily do real foot style calls, is that correct or no?

Ron Gould: No, I do a little bit of everything. Okay. Yeah.

Katie Burke: Do you have a favorite of what you do for the sound, I guess, for the sound? Let's go with just for the sound.

Ron Gould: Okay. On the sound side, as far as a favorite, I'm probably, I like a Oh, let's say a hedgewood, uh with an african blackwood tone board Um, that's that's my go-to generally speaking now there's sometimes, you know, i'll do any anything somebody is wanting but Generally that that's a good go-to for me if i want to enter it into a contest. I like the tonal quality And both of those woods and you know african blackwood is uh an oily wood that doesn't It's not as susceptible to moisture, which a call gets a lot of moisture in the tone board.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I was going to ask you about how moisture comes into effect.

Ron Gould: It affects it immensely, yes. A call could change just merely by hitting moisture in it, and what we call raising the grain. Wood, when it gets some moisture, it'll actually raise the grain slightly, and any slight variance in the height on that tone board and the curvature will create a little different sound on you sometimes, yes.

Katie Burke: Okay. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. And so with that, you would try to pick a wood, I guess, you say, I guess an oilier wood would help come back.

Ron Gould: Yes. That's why a lot of guys won't do any wood culls. They stick strictly with acrylic because then you're not affected by the moisture.

Katie Burke: Right. I know. The acrylic calls, they are cool and they have their purpose for sure. But the wood, I don't know. As a carver, I would think the wood would be where the art and the challenge of it comes in.

Ron Gould: No doubt that a custom call maker is probably going to lean more towards some of the exotics, the different types of woods and such. Absolutely.

Katie Burke: Is that something you would have picked up from other makers and stuff along the way, like those types of woods?

Ron Gould: Yeah, absolutely. That was something that, again, somebody has taught me prior to because I wouldn't have thought of that so much back in the day. Yeah.

Katie Burke: Yeah. I mean, that makes sense because some of these woods you wouldn't think to even purchase.

Ron Gould: Yep. Kind of moving from that, one of the things that I had found in being kind of those different types of woods and the different colors of woods. I got hooked up with a guy, Wes Townsend, and him and I started taking some woods and doing some dyes and trying to actually do different colors and such in those. It was kind of experimental at the time and it led me to a direction too with my coal making where I had not seen anything other than aluminum, brass, stainless or copper for the bands that were going on to them and at that point I thought you know I got a red coal that I dyed this red you know I'd like to see a red band and it led me down a path of actually learning how to anodize aluminum and doing multiple colors of bands. And I started putting those different colored bands, you know, on my stuff that again, Wes and I had kind of was doing a little mix of stabilization prior to that being a thing and the dye. So, you know, I wanted a matching red band. So I would come up with that doing anodized aluminum, which had been around forever. And we had, you know, we had no, nobody offered that that I found in the call community at that time. So I started making those and one thing led to another, a lot of different call makers. started contacting me where you get those. Ultimately, I ended up kind of making a business out of that. It led to a business I've been doing for several years now. How long does it take you to do that then? It's a process for sure and I did it and I continue to do it on a small basis as well So it takes me a little longer but um, you know Time-wise, I I haven't kept track with it. It's a process it takes a while to produce and I do them on a small scale like I said, so um time frame, I don't know. It might take a day to do a run, and a run might, I don't know how many I can get done in a day, and it depends on color and so on and so forth. But yeah, that was an interesting thing that came about in my call making career, that again continues to this day, where I actually send bands all over the country and all over the world for that matter. I've sent them to multiple different countries where other call makers are at, which I found interesting.

Katie Burke: Yeah. And I'm assuming, because if you're doing that as well as call making, it takes away from your actual call making. So you're having to balance that time.

Ron Gould: So that's a very interesting point that you bring up because guys know, as far as my decorative side, I've got a long waiting list. And that is exactly, you hit the nail on the head. That is exactly where this is taking a big chunk of my time. that I could have normally actually put into the decorative side and a lot of the calls that I do. Speaking of which, I'll just step past the bands there as well. I kind of got with a couple different people, one being Brian Byers. Brian Byers and I, we had actually got hooked up via the internet again and shared an interest in doing some decorative stuff. And it was always interesting, him and I spoke with some of the other people and we actually took a few trips to a couple other older call makers that were doing some decorative stuff, one being Billy Hayes. Billy worked with us in regards to some of our call making and it was always interesting. Billy felt as if I was leaning more towards the sound side and Brian more towards the decorative side. And I jokingly told the two of them, well, I can do decorative stuff as well. I, uh, again, really kind of started down that path as well. And, uh, got hooked up with, you know, multiple guys that were really good as far as helping in that. And, you know, there's, there's a lot of guys that came before us again, that older guys that were very inspiring as far as some of the, the stuff that they were doing, like camp Freeman and Jim Dester and Howard Harlan. Dennis Pichelle, different people were doing some really neat stuff that I felt, you know, that's something I want to go down that path. And I started doing a lot of carving and trying to implement different things as far as, you know, there's different avenues that you can go and different disciplines, I would call it, in coal making, whether it be checkering, carving, scrimshawing, wood burning. There's multiple things, and you just start going down that path and making calls without using all those things.

Katie Burke: Yeah, so do you focus on mastering one or do you kind of go at it all at the same time? I guess it's dependent upon the carver, right?

Ron Gould: Sure. It would depend on the individual, yes. I think it's Yeah, you need to stick with one thing until you feel comfortable with it, obviously. What I have told some of the younger call makers that are getting into it, I think that you do that, but I think you want to broaden your horizon a little bit. You want to try to learn to do a little bit of those disciplines, different ones. And when it comes to a call that you see nowadays at some of the decorative competitions, that call is going to have multiple disciplines involved. It's going to have some checkering, it's going to have some carving, it's going to have some engraving, It's going to have multiple things in there. And that's how this whole thing has progressed. It's interesting. We always say some of the coals 12, 15 years ago, they wouldn't even place in what is being produced today. They just lifted their game up each and every year.

Katie Burke: Yeah, I mean, it evolves like that, right? Somebody comes along and does something a little better and so then everybody else has to rise to meet that person. Absolutely, yes. Yeah, I think it was that call, speaking of Brian, and I just thought this was funny because I guess it was, I went to Calaplooza a year before last and somebody was teaching painting. Yes. And did them the painting workshop and Brian took it and he said he'd never painted before. Yeah. And I just found that funny as how, like, as far along as he is as a maker, that he'd never painted before.

Ron Gould: And there you go again. I mean, Joe is one that taught that class and he actually, I mean, he is a world renowned painter. I mean, this guy is really good. So it's nice to take those classes, those seminars. And it's nice that John Stevens at Cala Palooza is actually, you know, give the guys a platform to come to the different shows, you know, do the call makers build off and attend some of those seminars. I had the chance to actually teach a class on scrimshaw at R&T as well, and it's neat to see the guys come through.

Katie Burke: I have a question about scrimshaw, because that's funny. I used to work at a seaport museum, so we had lots of scrimshaw. Sure, sure. Yeah, so sailors like to do scrimshaw. But do you know how they got introduced into callmaking, and what did that look like? Because there's a lot of it now. I mean, you see a whole calls that are done in scrimshaw now.

Ron Gould: Sure. The earliest history, I would assume it's real similar to wood burning and you would have seen probably wood burning prior to, but that as as some different products, some of the all the man made materials like for countertops and stuff are. able to be scrimshawed as well as bone and the ivory, obviously ivory that can be done. When I look back, I think one of the first times I'd seen it would have been at the CCAA show in Chicago where Mike Houlihan actually introduced it. And Mike is just an outstanding artist and call maker. and he implemented some of that. And again, I know there were some guys prior to that, I'm drawing a blank on who they were, but that's where I see it coming into the whole call making and then the call makers trying to actually start doing that.

Katie Burke: Do you think it's because of the detail you can get with it as well? You can be a little more… Oh, yeah.

Ron Gould: it's it's it's an added again it's another discipline that adds it complements a call that would have some checkering and some carving and so on so forth it has to work together you don't want it all to be gaudy you know what i'm saying so it has to work with it and i i think it's yeah i think it it allows you you to put a little bit of detail in there it's yeah i would say that's probably the deal yeah

Katie Burke: Yeah, because with the Scrimshaw, you can draw a finer point than you would with carving. I mean, some people can carve that fine, but yeah, I would think you can kind of get that detail in there. It's almost kind of like what they do with guns and stuff. It's kind of got that similarity.

Ron Gould: Yeah, the hand engraving and the type of engraving they do. Like you said, I can't think of it right now. Yeah, it's similar to the guns, the detail that you can actually put in there, right?

Katie Burke: Yeah, because if you look back at the old calls, you can see where they're going in that direction, but because of the materials they're using, they can't quite get the detail that y'all are getting now.

Ron Gould: Yeah, and again, it's materials have developed to a point where they have these faux ivories, the man-made materials, the Corian, all this stuff that they're able to implement into the call, and you can do some scrimshaw work with that.

Katie Burke: Yeah, that's funny. It's funny you brought up the faux ivory. When they're at the museum all the time, I get so many people, not so many, but a decent number of people who comment about the ivory calls and if they should be in the museum or not. I'm like, well, they're not real. Yes, absolutely, yes. Because it's illegal, yes.

Ron Gould: Pre-ban 1972, that's what this stuff is.

Katie Burke: Yeah, this is like, it's not real or it's like not from an animal that no one, anyone cares. Exactly. It's antler, most likely.

Ron Gould: Right, yes, yeah, you'll see some of that, you know, there's antler classes and then WTF and people scrimshaw some of that stuff, you know, that's that's another good platform as far as for the call makers. Mark Wormath has done a wonderful job on the waterfowl side down there, as well as the whole turkey, the amount of calls that they actually have to enter into that contest that the National Wild Turkey Federation is amazing. And it's a really nice platform for callmakers to have a place to show their wares, compete, and talk with other callmakers.

Katie Burke: Yeah. So that's kind of the next thing I want to talk to you about is, well, you talked about Real Foot and then there's NWTF, National Wild Turkey Federation, the competition there. And then there's, they do the build off of Calaplooza now, which is new. And y'all do a little bit, y'all don't do that as much at Chicago as y'all used to, but there's a little bit there. How do all of those shows How have they changed or helped evolve call making over the years and from changing them maybe to more decorative or keeping the more sound side? How has that evolved call making and then recruiting call makers as well? I know it's a big question, but can you describe that?

Ron Gould: Sure, again, all of those calls, CCAA in Chicago, I mean, it's a great show for the fancy side of it. The NWTF, Call of Palooza with John, Real Foot, all of these shows are a kind of, I don't know what to say here. All of those shows are a platform, I guess, in order for, again, call makers to come together to actually learn, talk, and see what other people are doing. And each of them have their own, in Chicago, again, that's mainly your fancy stuff. You're gonna mainly see a lot of artwork and a lot of fancy calls, a little bit bigger calls so that you have a little better, a little bigger canvas yeah bigger canvas for your artwork and such then you're going to go to real foot and it's all all about sound and you're going to you know get together with guys that are all about making the best sounding call so on so forth and then you're going to go to nwtf and you're going to have both the best of both worlds and you're going to have both the sound and the decorative side of that um and those shows have continued to grow immensely i mean And with the interest in coal making, I can see the NWTF show especially has just blossomed. I mean, that thing has gotten huge. And again, hats off and kudos to Mark for all the work that he puts into it and all the people that help him do that. In doing so, again, it's created a platform where a lot of people have come to that and competed and enjoyed that. It's done wonders for the call making. guys like myself, it gives you an avenue to actually show off what you've done.

Katie Burke: Yeah. And I'm guessing on top of that, which we haven't talked about, which is a very important part of this, and I've talked about a lot on here, but the call collecting side, how important that is to you as the maker and getting to forge those relationships with collectors who will eventually purchase your work and look for things.

Ron Gould: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you know, that's, you know, you have a contemporary side, which is most of us guys nowadays. And then there's the older guys, the old school stuff. Some collectors like the old school, some like the contemporary, some like both.

Katie Burke: I find call collectors to be funny in that, whereas decoys can sometimes be more particular, like they are only going to get this stuff. Sometimes call makers, they just accumulate, man. love to collect.

Ron Gould: Richard D.: All us coal makers per se, I say we're all a bunch of wood hoarders, because I have more wood than I'll ever need in my lifetime, and I can't pass up a good deal if something comes about. I'll make a coal out of that someday, and it's been 20 years, you know.

Katie Burke: Nicole Raddatzka D.: It's just aging and getting better, right? Is that how it works?

Ron Gould: Well, I laugh about that because I look at it from the standpoint that I paid this for that because it still has the tag on it. And I look down, I say, they're asking what for that? It's getting cheaper, that's for sure. I think when it comes to the wood side, I think now you have a whole gamut of people doing all kinds of stuff with exotics and stuff, whether it be knife scales from the Forged in Fire series on tape TV to all the call makers. There's just so many different hobbies out there that accumulate a lot of the wood that the prices went astronomical compared to what it used to be.

Katie Burke: Yeah, y'all do. I think it's probably due to… Well, at least I think why collectors accumulate, I think it's due to the calls are not cheap, but compared to decoys, they are… The price point's much lower, so they're not shelling out quite the money they would if they were buying decoys, right? So they can buy more, which is good for y'all, and I think… And it shows… in call making, it shows that you can see there are more modern contemporary call makers than there are decoy carvers. And that's probably why is that there's more of a market for your calls, right? And so, which is good because then it continues the art and call makers are still doing well. So, that's a good thing.

Ron Gould: Yeah and like you say it goes back to what we said earlier on the apples and oranges it's hard to compare those two because again there is such a vast difference in price and mind you you know there's some calls out there bring lots and lots of money but In comparison to what you see in some of the decoy collectors, it's minimal.

Katie Burke: Yeah, it's minimal compared to what they're doing. And then it's the same with the making as well. They're charging more per than y'all are, and it's different. And then they have a lot of rules they have to follow versus y'all. And which, you know, I get why they do that. It makes sense. It just, you know, makes things a little harder at times.

Ron Gould: Back to the decorative side, you know, all the things that I've got to do working with the CCAA in Chicago and the competition and so on and so forth. it's interesting for me personally because I've gone through multiple stages of it and to the point of being a judge now and I just love seeing each and every year how people are stepping up and knowing some of the stuff that I judged five years ago versus what they've done now it's just amazing and getting to talk with those individuals you know about what I seen and judging and what, you know, potentially they might do a little bit better, so on and so forth. That's been an interesting path for me to go from where I've, you know, made a lot of the calls, gone through the decorative and actually judging these days.

Katie Burke: Yeah, that's kind of what my last question is going to be. It's like, what is that like for you to step back from competing and now you're judging? How is that affected? So I'm guessing prior you would plan out your call for a competition pretty far out in advance, but if you're not having to do it that way, how does that affect um your production like in a not in like uh how often you produce but in a what you produce like your style and that like are you freer to kind of change things or what's that like for you on yeah yeah absolutely it frees you up somewhat again i'm limited as far as time

Ron Gould: Between family commitments and grandkids and so on and so forth. And then you combine it by the fact that you have these shows spread out through the year and you're like, okay, how am I going to work in some working class stuff prior to. going to real foot. And then after that, I'm going to have to start making sure I have something ready for Nashville at the NWTF. And am I going to be burnt out at that point to where I don't wanna do anything for Chicago or Cala Palooza? So you kinda have to plan it out through the year, at least in my case you do. And inevitably, I'm scrambling up until the last minute. That's just my MO is, hey, I'm trying to finish this up. I'll be heading that away shortly. Yeah.

Katie Burke: I don't think that's unusual though. Yeah.

Ron Gould: The old call maker told me years ago too that he's so right when you're really into it. The calls never really die, especially on decorative side. The culture really does. You can look at it and think of a million things that you could tidy up or you could add to it to make it better. And you finally have to just come to it and give in and say, OK, that's all I'm going to do.

Katie Burke: Oh, that's a good spot. I like that. Um, yeah. And I think that's true with everything. Like you always think there's always more you can do. Right. Especially in art. Like there's something you could have changed or yeah, you could tidy up. You can always like go back and, and change something, but ultimately like no one else is going to notice that.

Ron Gould: But you, do you chuck the words out of my mouth? That's exactly what I was going to say. It's all year. It's, it's year because nobody else knows that for sure.

Katie Burke: Yeah. And, and, and I don't know if you're like me, you'll probably, if you shoot yourself in the foot when you're like, well, I could have, like, when you talk to somebody about that piece, you're like, yeah, I could have done this though. And it had been better.

Ron Gould: Yes, exactly. You just need to zip your lip because don't say anything. Just let them enjoy it for what it's worth and not try to downgrade it.

Katie Burke: Yeah. It's definitely a humbling. Yeah. You got to teach yourself to be humble about it and just, yeah.

Ron Gould: Yep. For sure. Speaking on, again, as far as the negative side, I had the pleasure to actually be on the inaugural Call of Palooza, very first CallMakers build off as one of the team members for team number one. That was just a pleasure. I mean, actually getting to work with those individuals and try to implement a game plan and having, finding time for each person to work on the call. That, that was fun. That was a really neat, you know, platform again that John allowed, you know, for us to do down at R&T.

Katie Burke: Yeah, that is, that is really neat. And that's very different from what y'all have ever been able to do. I mean, you have three days, two days or three days?

Ron Gould: It was in time segments over two days, I believe, yeah.

Katie Burke: Two days, yeah. And it's a team and y'all don't meet beforehand, right? You meet the day?

Ron Gould: Well, we were allowed to meet prior to to just kind of get a feel for what direction we should try to take. And at that point, though, it puts a whole new… Anybody that knows me, I'm kind of slow and picky about things. Well, there's no… No, being slow, you got a certain amount of time, you got to get it done. I believe Ronnie Turner might have been pushing me along a little bit.

Katie Burke: Is there anything you want to say that we haven't said before we go or mentioned?

Ron Gould: I believe that's it. It was great talking with you, Katie, but I actually need to get off here and do some bank orders that need to be taken care of. And I have to head to the shop because I have calls that need to be finished because I'm leaving this Friday for the Real Foot Show.

Katie Burke: Okay, and anyone can go, it's open to the public, so.

Ron Gould: Yes, yep. It's, I believe, the 11th and 12th is what the dates are on it. There's a couple seminars, and then the calling, or the call contest, and again, it's a group that gets together, and we had said years ago when they, they used to have actual, like, trade show with it, and the trade show kind of went by the wayside, and we, as call makers, always said, Even though the trade show stuff's not going to necessarily be there, we would like to continue to get together at real foot because it was centrally located here in the Midwest for people to get together as call makers. And we've continued to do that. And again, it's going on again this year.

Katie Burke: Yeah, and it's such a historic, cold place. So yeah, it's perfect. Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you, Ron, for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. All right. Thank you for having me. All right. Thanks, Ron, for coming on the show. Thank you, Chris, our producer, and thanks to you, our listener, for supporting wetlands and waterfowl conservation.