Ducks Unlimited Podcast

John Gordon: Hello, everybody. Welcome again to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I'm your host, John Gordon. It's my triumph and return to the DU podcasting role. Been away for a while. I think it's been about a year and opportunity came up that Nathan Ratchford, one of my partners in crime here at Ducks Unlimited, we decided we really would love to dedicate a lot of this podcast to dogs. And so, we kind of divided it up, divided and conquered, so to speak. And Nathan said, hey man, why don't you do some breed profiles? I think people out there in the audience would really love to hear some more specifics about some of the sporting breeds. So, that's where we are today, folks. And today is the Boykin Spaniel. We just put out a film on DU Nation last month on Boykins, and it's done really well. I think there's a lot of Boykins Spaniel owners out there, especially folks who are Ducks Unlimited members. Great little dog. I really love him. And my guest today is Eric Grubbs. He is from South Carolina. Eric, welcome to the DU Podcast. Thank you so much, John. I appreciate it. It's an honor to be with you. Man, so great to have you here, Eric. The Boykin is a really unique little dog. Okay. From, you know, just from what I've done and just a little bit of studying and being around some of the dogs, I really like their personalities. I like their size. I like their spirit. What is it about the Boykin that really drew you into it?

Eric Grubbs: So I'll tell you a funny story of how I kind of got started with the breed. So my daughter, who's now 36, when she moved out of the house about 18 years ago, my wife had empty nester syndrome, of course. She was just devastated. And I had been doing some research on potential dogs that may fill that void and kind of help her get over the hump, so to speak, of the daughter moving out. And so I had done some research on companionable gun dogs and fish dogs that I could hunt with. And The boy can really intrigue me. Number one is the official dog of South Carolina. Number two, the breed originated technically in Spartanburg, South Carolina in 1905 by a gentleman by the name of Alec White, who this little stray dog followed him to church. back in 1905 and on the east side of Spartanburg and he hunted as well. He really loved the dog and it was birdie, it was bitable, all these great things that you would hope for out of a companionable gun dog. And so, That's how the breed got started. That dog's name was Dumpy, and the dog followed him home from church and ended up being a family dog. I'll get to some more of the rich history shortly and pick up on that story. But back to how I got started, I started researching that dog, and I thought this would be great to fill that void with empty nester syndrome. I talked to my wife and she said, well, that's a big dog. I want a little lap dog. I said, well, I really think these are really small dogs. I kind of told a bit of a story so that I could get more of a gun dog that would fit my needs as well as hers. So I told her a little fib and told her it was a little tiny dog that would be a great lap dog for her. And so we got Lucy back in 2006, I think it was. And Lucy just passed away a couple of years ago. She lived to be 16. She was our first Boykin Spaniel. And again, with it being the official state dog of South Carolina and some of that rich history and the fact that they they're companionable gun dogs and a lot of people don't really know what that means but they're a companion dog but they they're a gun dog as well and um that started I guess my obsession and you could even go a step further and say it might have been my starter kit the bankruptcy because then I started running dogs in hunt test field trials and Really got cranked up.

John Gordon: And give us some of the background and something I really found interesting in your history with the breed, Eric, is your involvement with the Boykin Spaniel Rescue Society.

Eric Grubbs: Yeah. So right after we got Lucy, I decided I wanted to become more involved. And so I saw that the Boykin Spaniel Society, which is the original registry for the Boykin Spaniels, Um, it was formed in 1977, I think it was, and, um, it is, it is a Boykin only registry. Um, I saw they were going to have their spring national championships in Camden, South Carolina, excuse me, this was, uh, They originally started in Camden, then they went to Clinton, South Carolina, to the Clinton House. That year was at the Clinton House. So Sherry and I decided to go and just kind of see what that was all about and see some of the best boykins run these national field trials in Vi for a national championship. And Boykin Spaniel Rescue just happened to be set up on the back porch. And man, they were just so welcoming. I'll never forget. I mean, they treated me like family from the first time I met them. And Sherry and I decided, hey, this would be pretty cool to get to really know the breed if we decided to sign up as a volunteer and foster some of these dogs that needed to be rehomed. And so we filled out a volunteer application and we ended up fostering and adopting out, gosh, probably over 30 dogs throughout the years through Boykin Spaniel rescue and they are a 501c3 and you know of course it's tax deductible any donations that you give to them and they rescue on any given year over a hundred boykin spaniels and It's funny, again, that started my obsession. So several years later, I ended up being the executive director for Boykin Spaniel Rescue and ran the organization for the country for several years. And it was really rewarding.

John Gordon: That's awesome, man. I mean, I really like the fact that you know, some of the purebred, you know, rescue groups. A lot of times people, circumstances change in their lives, you know, or they just, it's really too much dog for them or just whatever it might be, but it's great that there's people like yourself that will step in there and re-home these dogs and really give them another chance.

Eric Grubbs: Yeah, and the thing about it is it's not an indictment on anybody to turn a dog in because, you know, there's no shame in that. People go through divorces. They, you know, they move from the country to an apartment. They have to change jobs. They go into the military. I mean, there's all kind of things that factor into that. And, you know, and some of it is people make a bad decision and they get a dog that's a a hunting dog that is really, really high energy and needs an outlet and they don't realize that the dog needs this much and they figure out they can't give it to the dog. So that's where BSR comes in and they vet all of their potential adopters and it includes an extensive home visit. multiple references as well as a vet reference, and if they make it past the criteria to adopt, then they go into the database and are able to adopt one of these dogs through Boykin Rescue. One man's junk sometimes, as you say, can be another man's treasure. and vice versa. And I was lucky enough to be afforded the ability to adopt Paul, which has a story of his own. But boy, he was my once in a lifetime dog. He was He was an anomaly. He's the most accomplished Boykin Spaniel rescue dog in the history of the breed. And he ended up being a hunting retriever champion, Upland Hunter, Master Hunter, Master Hunter Advanced, and AKC Upland. He competed in the Carolina Boykin Spaniel Retriever Club field trials. Those were placement in jams, not just pass or fail. He was dog of the year. I think three years, just a fine specimen. And the folks that have hunted ovary, they knew he was a special dog and a special breed. And if I hadn't have been the right fit for him, he could have Obviously been in that same caveat is what we were talking about earlier. Exactly, exactly.

John Gordon: And with, and in Paul's case, probably it sounds like, I mean, he was a really high drive animal. Had to have been to accomplish all he did. So it was probably just too much dog for the person that had him before that.

Eric Grubbs: Well, actually, so for him, and that is the case with a lot of the rescues, Paul was actually born into rescue. So his mom was found starving, heartworm positive, malnourished, and she was running up and down I-95 in a good Samaritan. Finally coaxed her into a van one day and closed the van door and then called Boykin Rescue and Boykin Rescue jumped into action, took her. She ended up having the puppies. Eight were born and seven lived. And I was fortunate enough to actually, even though I was executive director, I filled out the adoption application and paid the adoption fee and adopted Paul. But back to your earlier point, sometimes people don't understand how high drive and in the needs that these dogs have. What they need to understand is these dogs don't just need a five-mile jog every day. They don't just need to play tricks in the den. They need mental and physical stimulation every single day. And if you can't give them mental and physical stimulation, you probably aren't going to be the right family for the breed. I gotcha.

John Gordon: It makes perfect sense. Interesting. Another interesting job of the Boykin Spaniel that I find really fascinating because, you know, most of the retrieving breeds, this is not part of their resume is turkeys. And I thought that was really fascinating. And the fact they talked about that, that's the way they ended up with a really short dock tails was their job in the turkey woods.

Eric Grubbs: Yep, exactly. They're so versatile. I mean, they can be tracking dogs. They actually use them to find Eastern box turtles. Originally, they were used down around the Watery River to basically circle in and herd in turkeys. and find the turkeys for turkey hunters. It's crazy what they can do. I can tell you, Paul would retrieve anything that I shot, from a muskrat to a 55-pound beaver to Canada geese that were upwards of 15 pounds, and everything in between. Upland birds, they just They are such a desirable dog. But the thing that they were bred to do really is they don't run A to B like a lab. They are more or less bred to quarter the field. And so an analogy I'd give a lot of lab folks is trying to take a lab and teach him how to quarter the field and run A, B, C, D, E, F. is very similar to trying to get a boykin to run a straight line A to B. And obviously it can be done because there are over 100 HRCH title boykins now in HRC, but It's a different skill set that a boy can have versus a lab. So, folks need to understand that as well. And I'm the first to tell people, hey, if you live in Wisconsin and you are breaking ice and you're duck hunting in very frigid temperatures, A boykin's probably not going to be your best fit for a duck dog because you're probably going to need a lab or a chassis or something that can handle those extreme cold temperatures and in those frigid waters more so than a boykin. And I don't say that disparagingly to the boykin, it's just you need to understand what you're getting when you get a boykin, because you're getting a very versatile gundog, whereas a lab is a little more myopically focused in a certain skill set.

John Gordon: What's the size range, really, Eric, between the males and the females of boykins? Are we talking in the 30-, 40-, 50-pound range? What are we talking about?

Eric Grubbs: Inherently, they've gotten larger as the years have gone on. And that's obviously attributed to just adaptation, I guess you would call it, through breeding. But the breed standard. For a female, I think it lists on the Boykin Spaniel Society as 30 to 35 pounds, or 25 to 30 pounds, and then the male is about five pounds heavier. Ideally, it withers 16, 17 inches in height. Obviously, a dovetail, those really Piercing gold eyes are probably the most noticeable trait that they have, and then chocolate to liver color coat, and really no deviation in the coat color. A small white spot in the chest is the only thing that's allowed for BSS-registered dogs. And any white spots or other colored spots anywhere on the dog is a discount and disqualifies them from being registered through the BSS.

John Gordon: In other words, it's great small boat dogs. Sounds like to me.

Eric Grubbs: Yeah. They are known as the dogs that won't rock the boat.

John Gordon: That's a good one right there. Yeah. And, uh, yeah. And when we were doing that film, you know, it was with, uh, uh, actually my insurance agent, Scotty Dunn, man. And, uh, his trainer, Jonathan Holland and, uh, his dog is very, very small. I mean, Nellie's probably, she, she can't be 30 pounds if she had rocks in her pocket. And, uh, Jonathan's dog, June was, uh, was significantly, you know, bigger framed than his. So it's, so you've got some disparity there in the sizing, but, um, I was really impressed with both those dogs and, and their willingness to do the job at hand. It was, it was cold. It was wet. It was, uh, we were hunting, you know, primarily geese and they just handled it all in stride.

Eric Grubbs: And a well-trained dog will do that. And, you know, you don't have to have. I'm not one of these snob guys. I mean, I try my best to put HRCH on all my dogs before I hunt them. But you can just be the backyard novice hunter and teach your boykin to go retrieve and drop the bird at your feet. And if that's what makes you happy, They do a great job of that if you want to take it a step further and get more hey i want my dog to run doubles and to be able to take hand cast and run blinds and get the what i call the season level. It's relatively easy to get there to get to the finish level you you have to have. A skill set is a trainer or you need to get a trainer that does have that skill set and that ability. And the other thing that I would say is it's imperative to get a trainer that's familiar with the breed because you train all retrievers the same way, but pressure and other factors that go into training Sometimes you have to deviate a little bit with that and a boy can is so intelligent and they have such a strong personality that you have to be careful because a lot of times they actually are smarter than their owners and they will significantly exploit that if given the chance.

John Gordon: I want to go back just for a second and talking about the history of the brief, because I found it fascinating that the consensus story is that a dog was just walking down the road and the guy was coming back from church and he found it. And that becomes the foundational dog for the entire breed. I mean, I don't know if that's a one in a billion story or one in a trillion. It's really fascinating to me that Dumpy would seem to be wandering around the street. It's really crazy. And then, of course, Alexander White gives him to Whit Boykin, and that's where the entire name comes from. And everything starts from there. But this is a very young breed. you know, comparatively, right? I mean, the AKC really didn't recognize him until 1985. So you're talking about, you know, just a very short time that the boy can has really been on the scene.

Eric Grubbs: Yeah, so again, I think the original registry was the Boykin Spaniel Society, and that was 1977. So again, relatively new to the breed, AKC had an open registry, to your point, back in the 80s. They've since closed that now. So AKC finally, I think, got enough of a database of Boykins that they closed that registry now, so it's no longer open. But yeah, very unique story, and to your point, the reason I have such a yearning and a sense of dedication to Boykin Spaniel Rescue is, back to your point, a homeless dog that followed this guy to church, and they took him home in a horse and carriage, and he got ingrained in their family, and he sent the dog on boxcar to Columbia, and then from Columbia to Camden, and Whit Boykin found a suitable… Well, first, he wanted to see, okay, is Alec really telling the truth here? Has this dog really got this much talent? And sure enough, the dog was really birdie, really biddable, very smart, knew how to hunt. He had basically all the natural instincts. So he found what he considered to be a suitable mate, And that was Singo. And then from basically the early 1900s up until the 70s, various things went into trying to improve the breed. Chessies are in there, pointers are in there. There's a lot of different breeds that are in there. And I think that's one of the reasons that the Characteristics in the breed standards are so strict because of so many breeds that went into it. Now, hey, you can't have that little small, tiny white spot on the chest, if any. No other discoloration, so to speak, of the coat anywhere else on the body. The reason for that is to protect the integrity of the breed.

John Gordon: Very good. Are they specific health concerns with the boykins at all?

Eric Grubbs: Um, I think they're the number 18, this plastic dog, um, IE hip dysplasia. So not terribly bad. Um, EIC, CEA and DM that's. That's Kali-I Anomaly, Degenerative Myopathy, and Exercise-Induced Collapse. Those three genetic traits, if they're carriers, it's not an issue, but affected obviously is. I also was the president of the Carolina Boykin Spaniel Retriever Club and then the BSS, Boykin Spaniel Society, kind of saw the work that I was doing with rescue and with the dog club, Carolina Boykin Spaniel Retriever Club, and they tapped me to be a board of director and then ultimately vice president of the society and I was the chairman for the registry committee and I helped to strengthen the code of ethics for breeders when it comes to boykins and also was able to put basically four help in three genetic tests in place so that breeders would test the sire and the dam for hip, thighs, heart, patella, EIC, CEA, and DM. Those are the seven mandatory tests that are required by the society to produce litters of puppies in order to continue to improve the breed. So I don't know if that probably answered your question a little more than you were looking for. But by the same token, those four health and those three genetic markers are the markers that really we care about from a breed perspective. And call it 10 years ago, 50% of the dogs were carrier or affected with those three genetic traits. now they're under 20 percent. So, obviously, what's being done there is working. Excellent.

John Gordon: Excellent. Yeah, I think it's always good advice for folks to really, if you're going to be buying a purebred dog, just really make sure the health clearances are in place, both the sire and the dam, right? You really, you know, the old backwater, I mean, not backwater, backyard breeding kind of thing is just, hopefully, is a thing of the past, you know, especially for someone who's really looking for a solid dog. It starts with its health.

Eric Grubbs: Yeah, it absolutely does. And the thing that I would love to impress on your audience is, if you're going to get a Boykin Spaniel puppy, call somebody like myself or somebody well-versed in the breed, and we will tell you, hey, look, here's the deal. you have to have at least a clear marker either on the sire or the damn side for each of those three traits. Meaning, hey John, your dog is affected with EIC, CEA, and DM. My dog is clear on all three of those. That puppy is going to be a carrier. Because as long as one of those dogs is clear for each of those traits, doesn't matter what the other one is. Worst case, you're going to get carrier, and that's a recessive gene and a non-issue. Great advice.

John Gordon: Any other advice for somebody looking to get a boy conspanial, especially maybe from a training perspective or anything like that? Anything that you could really give them that they should know?

Eric Grubbs: Yeah, so the first thing I would say is if you're looking to buy a Christmas puppy, I beg of you, don't get a Boykin, please. I mean, if you're getting a Christmas puppy, that tells me that your priorities are probably not going to be companionable gundog, and they probably are not going to be Hey, I'm going to go out and work the dog on a physical and a mental stimulus every single day, because a tired dog is a good dog. And the Boykin is a little bit different than the other breeds because, again, you can run them 20 miles if you don't work their brain. They aren't going to be tired. They have to have mental and physical Stimuli in order to Really get what they need. So, you know Avoid the christmas puppies avoid the hey, I want to get a dog for the kids You know understand they're a perfect family companion But they gotta have a job and the job's not hey, I got it for the You know, for the kid and they're going to be able to take care of it and that sort of thing. It, it really needs to be, Hey, this, this dog is going to be my hunting companion. He's going to be playing with my kids, that sort of thing, he or she. But, uh, first and foremost, I'm going to give them a job and, and, you know, they don't have to hunt. A job in mental stimulation could be tricks and agility. It could be a number of things, but it has to work their brain as well as the physicality side.

John Gordon: Yeah, I think that's great advice for all the sporting breeds. The dogs were bred and carefully developed over many years to have a job. And they weren't really made to hang around the house. And I think most folks, like I said, even if you don't hunt, it doesn't matter. They need something they've got to have to do. Otherwise, they're just going to be miserable. So great advice, great advice all over across the board. Any final thoughts you've got on Eric on the Boykin Spaniel?

Eric Grubbs: They're a wonderful breed. I really, I love them. I've dedicated the past, you know, 15 years of my life to the breed and I wouldn't change a thing. You see my shirt. It says hashtag. I love Paul. And he is obviously my once in a lifetime dog. And, you know, he's he is he didn't just take a piece of my heart. He took he took my heart. But I love the breed so much because of him. The thing I would say is, if you get a boykin and you run them and hunt test and field trials, get involved with your HRC club and run some HRC hunt tests. reach out to the Carolina Boykin Spaniel Retriever Club. They're one of the few clubs that really does first, second, third, and fourth placements and judge award of merits. And so you find out how your boykin stacks up against other boykins. This is not a lab. This is only boykins. And it's placements and jams. And if you really want to meet some really good people and some people that 20 years from now will be lifelong friends, get a Boykin and get immersed in the Boykin community. And trust me, you will have friendships like you've never seen before. I can I can name 20 of my closest friends right now that I wouldn't have met had it not been for Paul.

John Gordon: I can really tell that was a special dog, man. I mean, just the way you talk about him, I wish I could have met him.

Eric Grubbs: Yeah.

John Gordon: Well, thanks for being with us, Eric. And it was a great conversation, man. You know, I really learned a lot. I mean, the Boykin Spaniel, I'm really learning a lot about him, period, over the last few months. It's really a pretty neat little dog and a really capable animal in a lot of ways for a lot of different things. It's definitely a sporting dog worth looking at if you're looking for one.

Eric Grubbs: A shameless, shameless plug. Shameless plug is Paul, even though he is deceased now, has got a Facebook page and you can take a look at some of his accomplishments. It is Boykin Spaniel Rescue Paul, P-A-W. Um, would be honored if you'd take a look at it and, uh, give him a like and, and see what the little dog did. Very good.

John Gordon: Very good. Uh, I would, I would, I would, uh, advise anybody to do that out there. Sounds like a great animal. Well, uh, thanks for being with us, Eric. And, uh, thanks everybody out there for listening to the Ducks Unlimited podcast and for supporting wetlands and waterfowl conservation.