Ep. 696 - What Makes the Peterson Collection So Special?
On today's episode of the Ducks Limited podcast, I have Corey Rogers of the Shelburne Museum and Zach Zetterberg of the Peoria Riverfront Museum, and they're here to talk about the canned goose exhibit. In this episode, we go through the collection and talk about what is unique and special about those decoys, so stay tuned to learn more. The following episode of the DU podcast features a video component. For the full experience, visit the Ducks Unlimited channel on YouTube, subscribe, and enjoy.
VO:Can we do a mic check, please? Everybody, welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I'm your host, doctor Mike Brazier.
Katie Burke:I'm your host, Katie Burke.
VO:I'm your host, doctor Jerry Tensa. And I'm your host, Matt Harrison.
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Katie Burke:Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Ducks Loaned podcast. I'm your host, Katie Burke. And today on the show, we're gonna talk about the candy goose project, the candy goose exhibit and book. So today, to talk about that, I have Corey Rogers from the Shelburne Museum.
Katie Burke:He's the Franci and John Downing Senior Curator of American Art, and I also have Zach Zetterberg from the Peoria Riverfront Museum, who's the Curator of Art in the Center of American Decoys. Welcome to the show, guys.
Corey Rodgers:Thank you so much. Thank you.
Katie Burke:And welcome back, Corey.
VO:Yeah. It's good to be here. I'm excited to to participate.
Katie Burke:Second time. It's been a while. I can't remember when you were here.
VO:It was during the pandemic. I did it in my living room.
Katie Burke:Okay. Yeah. That's right. It was, like, really early on in my podcasting days. So because I started this during the pandemic, or at least they let me do this during the pandemic, and then they let me stay.
Katie Burke:Alright. So just to kind of if anyone's listened to the episode before this that I did, it talks more about this project that we did with Tim Peterson, and that episode is with Mark Petrie, the author of the book, and we kinda go in more of the details of the book and kind of the science and the writing behind the research behind that book. But this one, I can't we didn't really, in that episode, focus on the Peterson Collection really at all as Mark is a has a science background and that's kind of what he brings to the table, so we kind of mentioned the exhibit and the decoys that were featured in the book but really didn't go into a whole lot of detail, so that's kind of what I'd like to do today is kind of give this collection the focus it deserves, talk about why y'all are here and how y'all are partners in this collection and this exhibit. So I guess to kind of give a little more background, so Tim Peterson is, the collector who put this together. I think it's about thirty, thirty five years worth of work he's done to put this collection together.
Katie Burke:It's all canned goose decoys and art and ephemera. There's more than just decoys. And the reason he put this to get collection together was because he grew up near in Rochester, Minnesota hunting with his dad and the giant Canada goose was rediscovered at Silver Lake near Rochester, Minnesota. So that kind of started his love for the Canada goose, guess per se, and then he started collecting from there. So I was introduced to Tim, speaking of the pandemic, that's when this started for me.
Katie Burke:So I was on a phone call with Tim, and I think it was John Dieter from Guy and Dieter in, like, early COVID days. Like, I was still at my house. We have it like, nobody was in an office anywhere, like, that early and was the first conversation. That's almost five years ago, four years ago at this point, and at the time, I had no idea it was gonna be as big as it was. I thought we were just gonna, like, put in, you know, like 30 decoys in the museum and we'll just, show off a couple and then from there, it just grew, we added a book element and then even in the last year, it's gone from taking up a portion of the museum at Waterfowl and Heritage Center to being the entire museum, so it's it's grown a lot.
Katie Burke:I think we're gonna have a 150 decoys on art for us. So when were y'all I can't remember in this period when Tim had decided he wanted it to travel. So at what point who introduced y'all to this and, like, was it Tim himself or how did y'all get involved in the traveling portion?
VO:Yeah. I first met Tim Peterson when Steve O'Brien brought him to Shelburne Museum after we had recently renovated and reopened our Dorset House Galleries, which houses our decoy collection. And Tim was very nice and complimentary about the display and just a really, really, you know, interesting guy. And then a couple of months or excuse me. A couple of years later, he sends me an email, and he invites me to come down to his museum, basically, gallery.
VO:Yes. His office. Yeah. It's it's more than an office. It's like a it's two museums in one, and it's really amazing.
VO:It's pretty daunting, actually. And he invited us down and me and my director, Tom Denberg, and we sat down, we talked about this idea of bringing the exhibit to the museum. And it was really exciting for us because, you know, he has these marquee decoys in his collections, like the can like the Osgood goose. He's got the Lee Dudley goose. He's got the the Shane Heider gooses, which I'm sure Zach will talk about.
VO:And it was really exciting for us to be able to sort of bring them back together again. And so we were obviously a yes from the moment he he asked us.
Katie Burke:Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I so what what point when did when did that happen?
Katie Burke:Like, how long ago was that?
VO:I don't know. Maybe two years ago. It was definitely after you all had decided that you were doing the book, and I was very excited about that.
Katie Burke:Yeah. Okay.
Corey Rodgers:I would say the same for me. Several years ago, I was introduced to Tim through Steve O'Brien and and Colin McNair at Copley. And then I think Tim visited Peoria probably about a year ago now, but I did I did get the chance to go to Boston and Oh, good. To meet Tim's place. And, he it's a exceptional collection, and it's gonna be extraordinary to have it here in Peoria.
Katie Burke:Were the geese at his office when you were there?
Corey Rodgers:I saw them packed up. Okay. I did
Katie Burke:Corey, were they there when you were there?
VO:There was only one is it the sapphire ghost, the goose, the the one with the sleeping? Yeah. He had just gotten that from he just won it in the auction, and it was just in his conference room, and that was the only goose in the building at the time. It was amazing.
Katie Burke:Yeah. So I went when this would have been three three three ish years ago. So when we went to when he photographed everything. So I went up to kinda go through that and kinda figure out what we were gonna put in the book and like where book versus exhibit, that sort of thing, and so he had most of them. He didn't have some of the, like, great ones like the the Crowell pair and so those weren't there because they were I think they were in mass they were at at the Cape with a lot of them were there.
Katie Burke:So and he had already photographed a lot of those for that little he has this little book he did really early on a few years ago, so they were already photographed, but we got in there. And it is daunting. You walk in there and you turn the corner and it's like five Warhols just Yeah. Right in the fall. But it's yeah.
Katie Burke:No. It was crazy. So we had most of them there and he photographed which is cool for the book. He photographed he had the same photographer photograph all the decoys, so everything's super consistent, which the audience will see as we go through some of the pictures of the geese. They'll notice, like, they're all the exact same setup and everything, which is nice because most decoy books don't do that because it costs a lot to get it that consistent.
Katie Burke:So it's rare that someone takes the time to make sure they put those details into it.
VO:Yeah. Tim I guess Tim's not one of those guys who does things about half measures at all, and I kept angling. I angled hard to get into the Cape house. I wanted to see all the decoys together. He Tim didn't bite.
VO:I understand.
Katie Burke:I know. I tried. I've tried too because I actually my in laws live on The Cape. So I was like, I'm just right here. I could just drive over.
Katie Burke:I mean, I I need to get away for, like, a few hours. And he was like, he's, yeah, no. Though I do get I will get to go see the Harmon. Like, though, most of those aren't there, but she did invite me to come to her house. So I was like, at least I got one of
VO:the Cape people to let me come.
Corey Rodgers:I was fortunate to get to go I went and saw Judy when I was in Boston.
Katie Burke:Oh, yeah.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. It's it's a exceptional visit.
Katie Burke:You'll love it. I was I was gonna go last summer and then just because I'm there with my, like, family and my kids when I'm in The Cape, and I think she had some of her grandkids there and, we just couldn't get it to work.
Corey Rodgers:She'll walk them the whole crib.
Katie Burke:Yeah. I know. So I'll I'll do it again. We go every summer, so except I don't get to go to The Cape this summer because I have to deal with this exhibit. So it's opening on while my kids are at my kids will be at The Cape while We are doing the exhibit opening.
Katie Burke:So that's to be said, like, we should say this is opening okay. And this is a part I don't I mentioned in the other podcast, I always we've changed the date so many times. So we're opening August 1 to the public, and then, Zach, you would know the next. So when will you open?
Corey Rodgers:We'll we'll open January 2027.
Katie Burke:K. So then it'll be with us for a year and a half almost, a little year and four months. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
Katie Burke:Perfect. You're gonna make me do all this work?
Corey Rodgers:Have it for the year of 2027.
Katie Burke:Okay. And then at that point, Corey, where will the I know y'all are seasonal, but will y'all be full year at that point or
VO:Yeah. That's that's the hope is that we'll be open year round and we'll have it through 2028.
Katie Burke:Okay.
VO:Very excited about it.
Katie Burke:So Ducks Unlimited is unique in that we have very few we don't have a big collection that we own. We typically just borrow most of our stuff, and that's because we are a part of a much bigger organization that is with conservation. So that's just how we operate, but y'all have your own collections and y'all have your own decoy collections. So when you were approached with the Peterson collection and you first kind of like got to see what decoys were in those collections, what decoy were you most excited about to bring to your museum?
Corey Rodgers:Corey, you wanna go ahead? Oh, sure. Yeah.
VO:Me, it really was the Charles Oddgood Osgood goose. You know, we have the five other geese in that rig. For those of the viewers who don't know about these goose these geese, excuse me, these are a rig of six Canada geese, and they were made by Charles Osgood, who was a ship captain. And he was waiting for cargo to be loaded onto his boat in the Bay Of San Francisco, and it took longer than expected. It took several months.
VO:And so during that time, he decided he was gonna make a rig of hunting decoys, and he crafted them really beautifully. And the ones that we have in our collection, this one that you're seeing on the screen here, that one is a sentinel. We have three we have in the rig, there were three sentinels. There's one feeding, and there's one preeding. And then oh, yes.
VO:There's four sentinels. And it's what's really amazing about them is what they're great pieces of design, because if you look at the neck, and I think Katie has
Katie Burke:a a detail.
VO:A detail of it. He designed them so that the heads wouldn't get broken in transport. So there's like a little cotter pin that slips into these two halves of a door hinge, a brass door hinge, and he was able to detach the heads, and that way he could store them and move them safely. These are sort of the crown jewels of our collection. The other five, they're at the museum here in Shelburne.
VO:And so, you know, this is the rare opportunity for us to have the full rig back together again. And I know, Zach, that might be playing to sort of your thinking about the Schoenhider geese for when you have the show. Would have to to lend ours to you so that you can have a a full rig.
Corey Rodgers:Well, that would be incredible. Yep.
VO:Yeah. And so this was the goose that, you know, my jaw dropped and hit the floor because I we knew that there was the sixth one was out there. We didn't know who had
Corey Rodgers:it at the time. You didn't know who had.
Katie Burke:Oh, wow.
VO:No. And so this was like that moment. I just I could I was pinching myself just like I was there. So I'm very excited about this. This is what gets me up in the morning.
VO:Yeah. So I know. These decoys.
Corey Rodgers:I think that right there is telling of just the exciting the excitement of Tim coming forward with his collection for the whole decoy community because me, for for years, nobody has known where many of these superstar decoys have gone to. And to see some of these things is gonna be historic.
Katie Burke:Yeah. And I don't think collect well, people and collectors as well, like, know so Tim, this is the first time anyone's really even hearing about him as a collector. He's been extremely private up until this. This is the big announcement that he's doing this. So, Corey, did you talk to Tim about the Osgood Goose?
Katie Burke:Do you know when he acquired it?
VO:I did not know he acquired it. I didn't know it until long he's had it? I don't know. There was a my director tells an anecdote about how he was on a plane one time, and he was sitting next to a guy on the plane. And the guy said to him, hey.
VO:You know, he he learned where my director will work, and he said, you know, you have a great decoy collection, and you have these Osgood geese in it. And, you know, I have one of those geese in my collection. And Tom didn't get his name, didn't remember who it was. And so that has plagued me
Katie Burke:for all
VO:these many years and find come to find out it was Tim Peterson. That's Oh, that's very
Katie Burke:I wonder if he's been just waiting all those years to run into somebody from the shell burn. Like, hey. I have that.
VO:Yeah. He planned it.
Katie Burke:Yeah. That's awesome. So do you have these geese I mean, obviously, they were all together at one point, but have they been together in at any other point?
VO:No. And the story that we have about the five that are in our collection is that when the dealer who brought them to the museum's attention, when they found them, they were being used as pool ornaments in someone's pool. And the dealer immediately recognized that they were important decoys and purchased them and then wound up giving them to the museum. So What
Corey Rodgers:year did that happen, Corey?
VO:Oh, I think that was in the sixties.
Katie Burke:I think
VO:it was, like, '63 or something like that. I have to look.
Katie Burke:Yeah. But yeah. That makes more sense for the sixties. Like, oh god. That's crazy.
Katie Burke:I wonder where that I mean, I wonder where that six one one is split off from them.
VO:Yeah. I don't know. It was it's really wild, but I'm I'm very excited that they'll be reunited. And, hopefully, Tim will be so excited that maybe someday in the future, he'll let them live together once again. Yeah.
Katie Burke:Good luck with that. I'm gonna I'm gonna lobby hard. Yeah. Alright.
Corey Rodgers:Alright, Zach. Good case.
Katie Burke:Yeah. That's for sure. Alright, Zach. When what do you what are you most?
Corey Rodgers:Well, think it's Corey knows. It's it's kind of obvious. Tim's got three standing Charles Schoenheider senior geese, and he's got a floater as well. So he owns four
Katie Burke:So I don't have a picture of all of them.
Corey Rodgers:Of what was originally 12. There's the there's a standing and a floater. So that's the only floater that exists. It is believed there's another one where that has gone. We don't really know.
Corey Rodgers:But this this rig of 12 was commissioned around 1918, and 10 of the standing gays still survive. One of which is in the collection of the Shelburne Museum. And we have one here at the museum on loan, but it is a promise gift to the museum here in Peoria from Tom Figgy, and that's in honor of a guy named Merle Glick. And Merle sort of well, he did. He laid the foundation for Peoria Riverfront ECM exhibiting folk art and with an emphasis on decoys, and that that probably started about thirty years ago.
Corey Rodgers:So we've got a a Schoenheder goose coming to our collection and having Tim's Schoenheder yeast back in Peoria sort of coming back to the origins of where they came from, and my plan is to hopefully get as many Schoenhider yeast together in one room in Peoria as possible. So we got a good start.
Katie Burke:Talk about why this construction for Shane Heider.
Corey Rodgers:Well, well, that's a great question. I mean, you know, you'd think you've got this goose, it's it's pretty large standing on one foot. It's it's really delicate, really. It's functionally not the greatest design, but aesthetically it's a it's a masterpiece. Why you chose to only use one foot is beyond me.
Corey Rodgers:You know, there's it said they they use them as ice decoys and that, you know, water could have been spread over this metal foot and sort of serve as adhesive to, you know, keep the bird stable. I think probably they were stuck in the mud or, you know, along the bank if they were used along the water at all. You know, also, I don't think these decoys were were even used, but the idea
Katie Burke:was to I mean, the only one that looks used is the floater.
Corey Rodgers:And I think it's possible that Shane Heider junior did use that use that decoy. But the the Steady geese stayed in Shane Heider seniors at his house until he died, and then collectors found them and then they dispersed.
Katie Burke:Tell the story of why they were commissioned and how that commission For went those who don't know, it's a great story.
Corey Rodgers:So a guy Daniel Voorhees, who was a member of a prestigious club here really close to Peoria, commissioned Shane Heider to make this rig of geese, but it took Shane Heider a year to make them, and he finished them. He presented them to Voorhees at a cost of a $125, and Voorhees just said it was too much. He refused to pay. So Shane Hyder, obviously upset, took them back and stored them. It's it's kind of it's hard to imagine putting a year's time into a project and and not getting paid for it.
Corey Rodgers:Especially somebody like Shane Heider who, you know, he's a a market gunner and a carpenter. He's got 14 kids. He takes on this pretty large commission. I mean, it's a time consuming effort to make even one of those geese.
Katie Burke:Oh, yeah. And the way he constructs them, you can't see them. I don't know if you can see them in here, but maybe on the the detail of the bottom a little bit. Yeah. You can kinda see the
Corey Rodgers:Well, they're all laminated.
Katie Burke:Yeah. They're laminated.
Corey Rodgers:Multiple laminations and the head is laminated, then you have to cast cast the foot. He put some serious time and consideration into making these.
Katie Burke:That's crazy. Yeah. You can tell a little bit on if you look in close on here, you can see the lamination a little bit. But, yeah, that's crazy. I can't pay a $125.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. Right?
VO:One favorite of memories was when I went out to visit Zach one time to give a lecture at Peoria Riverfront Museum. Zach very kindly took me on a wild goose chase to find Shane Hyder's home, and he drove me through the neighborhood. And we did we find it? Or I I can't remember. I can't remember that.
Corey Rodgers:I think I know where it is. I'm not sure I knew Ben. Yeah. I may have just told me where it was. I I believe it's on Vine Street.
VO:But Yeah. But it stuck in my memory, that part.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. And there's a classic photograph of the whole rig set up. I think it was taken in the thirties.
Katie Burke:Yeah. Don't I I think it's going in in the he has it for exhibit, like he has a copy of it that he got from the Tinellis. Donna and and Joe have been on the podcast, but they donated some photographs to exhibit with it.
Corey Rodgers:Great. Long are great.
Katie Burke:So they they will have the picture of them, which I'm sure you have that picture too. Right? I would think. Yeah. I would assume you would have that picture.
Katie Burke:Okay. Besides those two geese, what do y'all I mean, I know what I find special about the collection as a whole, but what do y'all when it when you think about the collection, what do you find unique or special about it?
VO:For me, I think it's the breadth and the amount of talent that he has in the collection. I mean, he was going after all of the big names, and I'm hard pressed to find someone who's missing from the collection. There are people like Lee Dudley. That was a real surprise to me, which is a really gorgeous high neck goose.
Katie Burke:I know. I wish that's the one I didn't put in
VO:this slideshow. Sorry. You're all missing, Al, let me tell you, because it's gorgeous. It looks like something out of, like, an art deco exhibit. It's just these really
Katie Burke:beautiful I'll sort of add it before the
VO:Curvaceous body, all very streamlined, spindly neck, but it's a it's you can tell a mile away that that's a Lee Wiley. That one's beautiful. You know, for me also, it's just it's the personal connection that Tim has to the Canada goose and how that really informed his collecting. And, you know, we keep hitting it over and over again, but for those of you who aren't, you know, decoy enthusiasts, this is the creme de la creme. This is all of the master class decoys makers, and he bought the best of the best of the gooses the geese, excuse me, that exists.
VO:So have a hard time with the plurals there. It's confusing. But it's it's it's just it's it's more than museum quality. It is a superb collection.
Katie Burke:That mentioned, like, talking about having getting stuff that you didn't have this is a good story about the book that we didn't talk about. So when we were going through the book and we were, like, picking out the decoys to do it and we were structuring the book and, like, we're like, how are we gonna structure it? And then a lot of that has to do with conservation history as well, like how to structure it. And one of the things we were we finally went we decided on is, you know, we definitely would do a Pacific like, we would do Atlantic Flyaway and, obviously, there's so many carvers like the Osgoode and the Dudley are in that flyaway, and then the Central Flyaway which has the Shane Hyder's and there's a million in there too. But then you can't not talk conservation wise about the West Coast, the Pacific And Central Flyaways because so much conservation wise with candied geese is there.
Katie Burke:Like, they're the so many of the subspecies such as the cacklers and the small geese, the white cheeked geese are all on that side of the country. So there are not many decoys. So all he had at the time when we started doing this, the only West Coast decoy he had in collection were the Mastons, which are I have them on here, I think. Gorgeous skis. And are these them?
Katie Burke:Make sure I have it right. Are those yeah. So we're only these Mastins, and we were like, we we can't just put one decoy back there. Like, there's gotta be more, and so he took the time and went and bought more, like, I mean, we end up only think using three carvers that did, like, West Coast geese in that section, but he he went and he found more carvers and more geese from that collection and it was not an easy task because they had to be right with as Tim, they have to be of a certain quality. He's not just gonna take any goose, so but he did.
Katie Burke:He went and bought more geese and he's bought he probably bought not just including the West Coast, but he definitely went when he realized this project was happening and started purchasing more geese so that he could fill out his collection. But, yeah, he did that was interesting how he did that because and then I like how it's one species, which is really interesting. Now a lot of people do that, and it's also a species which people who don't think about waterfowling history and decoys like we do because it has such it's kind of revered historically as decoys, but most people's relationship with the Canada Goose is not great. So it just
VO:They they bring down airplanes.
Katie Burke:Right? Yeah. Exactly. It's not great. So it's and it's interesting in that way to me.
Katie Burke:That's part why I like it. Yeah. You know, you
VO:see them in parks, they're sort of mean. They're hissing at you. They're pooping everywhere, but, you know, they really are quite elegant. And when you see a field of them sort of some of them laying down and enjoying their lives and then the Sentinels keeping their heads up, it really is it's it's a beautiful thing just witness in person.
Katie Burke:Well, there's so many of them because they're smarter than we give them credit for.
VO:Yeah. Exactly.
Corey Rodgers:Alright, Zach. I think I think Tim's collection, because of its strength in showing, you know, all of these regional qualities of that same species is what makes it so strong. And that, you know, for decoy enthusiasts and people who wanna study study the art form, this is it. To be able to see all these examples of the same of the same bird made by so many different people is incredible.
Katie Burke:Yeah. That's a really good point. And I wanna actually we're gonna take a quick break, and then I think it'll be after that, I wanna talk a little bit about some of these differences. Like, have a couple examples to talk about paint versus, like, the very simple versus the very, like, complicated, and we can kinda talk about that. Okay.
Katie Burke:We'll take a quick break, and we'll be right back.
VO:Stay tuned to the Ducks Unlimited podcast, sponsored by Purina Pro Plan and Bird Dog Whiskey after these messages.
Katie Burke:Welcome back, everybody. Alright. So we were talking a bit about kind of the variety of how these geese were constructed, which we could get into a lot of the details about regions and everything and how they were influenced. But just to kinda give and we were just pulled them up. So, like, the Boyd geese here, which are East Coast, and they have this very I mean, these are they have more paint detail than others, but they're not as detailed versus, like, I have a really good detail image, hold on, of the Purdue, how much, like, difference that is.
Katie Burke:Yeah. Yeah. Like, there was a huge and I don't think people real I mean, a lot of people that listen to the show are not necessarily decoy people, so they don't necessarily realize the difference of regions. And I don't know for the East Coast as much, but I know Zach, you can talk about kind of this paint style for
Corey Rodgers:For sure. Well, mean, so this is this is one of six Purdue geese that exists And this is you know, when I see that, I can I can tell that it's Charlie Purdue's paint? It's got a little heavier hand, although it looks very detailed. But Edna's paint is quite a bit more delicate. Not saying that this isn't an exceptional example, but, you know, this was made later.
Katie Burke:Okay.
Corey Rodgers:And Ed was probably not not painting. She was, know, she painted decoys for thirty plus years and then got lead poisoning, because I think she was kind of licking the paint off the end of her brush trying to clean it off and and didn't know about lead yet. So you have a very few geese made by Purdue. We we have one here at the museum that is repainted. So I I think that looks as far as I know, that looks like it's an original Charleau Perdue paint, which
Katie Burke:is two, so hold on. Right here. Hold on. Me look this picture. So this would be yeah.
Katie Burke:These they're the two that collection. There are two. I thought there was only one, but there are two.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. Just exceptional examples from, you know, one of the iconic makers in the Illinois River Valley hit Charlie and his wife, Edna, painted decoys for or painted a car for fifty years, made more decoys than anybody else around this area, and with a quality that surpassed almost anybody else in this this area.
Katie Burke:Yeah. I do have also just while while we're talking about it, I have this guy too.
Corey Rodgers:Oh, yeah. So that was made by Bob or Robert Elliston. Again, very few geese survived by these makers. I think three Elliston geese survived As far as and so the Elliston story is kind of the beginning. One of the earliest makers, Robert and his wife, Catherine, and I would say his wife, Catherine, is probably one of the most talented artists to come out of the Illinois River Valley, and she ends up she ends up painting for another Peoria Carver Burt Graves, and then she also teaches Edna Purdue how to paint.
Corey Rodgers:So there's this great lineage of, you know, Carver sharing ideas, painters sharing ideas, you know, Robert and Catherine, this this husband and wife team, know, that that goes on with with Charlie and Edna. So that that goose, that's special. That's that's really early Illinois River, and he made that likely for a club in or a hotel actually they were living at called the Undercliff Hotel in Bureau County, which is just north, really right by the big bend in the river in the on the Illinois River.
Katie Burke:That's cool. Yeah. They're and that's like really the only air I mean, Illinois River is only where you get, like, any women in in this history for a while. Yeah. It's interesting.
Katie Burke:And I wonder, like, why? Like, why they're I mean, I guess Catherine Ellison's the main reason because she helped and then it
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. I believe so. I mean, so many stories throughout art history, women are involved in and not not recognized until, you know, recently.
Katie Burke:Yeah. Because and you probably there's more, you know, like there's gotta be more in that. These are a lot of times family businesses, not only as like just making decoys, but like they were guides and market hunters and things like that. So it's probably there's probably more help that is not noted other way. Yeah.
Katie Burke:There's no way to know sometimes.
Corey Rodgers:And some of these I think were were maybe repainted swan decoys as well. Some of those.
VO:Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Katie Burke:Because they do have yeah.
Corey Rodgers:They have a little
Katie Burke:They have a little curvy neck.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah.
Katie Burke:There's only three of them?
Corey Rodgers:I believe so. I know Dave Nebo
Katie Burke:Does Nebo have one? I think he has one.
Corey Rodgers:He has one. And then I believe the one we're looking at right now used to be
Katie Burke:This used to be the Figgy one, I think.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. That used to be in the the Masterworks collection.
Katie Burke:Okay. And then so there's a third one somewhere.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. I'm not sure who has the third one.
Katie Burke:Alright. So and then if we go back, let's look at this guy because he's great. To the East Coast, you have, like, a much different it's still very detailed, right, the ward this ward bishop said, but it's it's that's definitely a more it's simpler. Like, they have it's a simpler design to it.
Corey Rodgers:Is that That's the word. You might be able to help me out on that, but I think the paint on that is scratched out to achieve Yep. That looks so
VO:Absolutely. You know, that's one of
Corey Rodgers:the things something you see in Illinois is this Yeah. You know, removal.
VO:You know, Katie, you're you're sort of skirting around a subject that has been really interesting to me, and that is that debate on how do you depict a wild fowl species and how effective is it. I think each carver who was also a hunter sort of had their own anecdotal approach to this. You know, some people felt like it could be, you know, sort of a a facsimile. It didn't have to be too realistic in its plumage. It just sort of had to hint at the color patterns of a bird.
VO:And other carvers felt like it needed to look exactly like the bird, as close as they could approximate it. And, you know, what we know about birds today is they have really good eyesight. And, you know, I really think it just comes down to just what the the artists were able to achieve on their own based on their skill, but also on their anecdotal experiences in the field.
Katie Burke:Because it's very different, like so this is Maryland, which if you look around Maryland, they will kind of the Ward brothers kinda set that up for them. Like, that's very similar to what else you'll find. But then, like, you have talk about, like, very limited hold on. Where are they? The cobbkeys, which are about as minimal as you get.
VO:With their root heads or their and their masked bodies, reclaimed masked bodies that you can tell them by that notched tail. Just really beautiful. And what's really nice about this pair is you can see the difference in how they sort of animate the birds. You know, they have the swimming birds, the birds with a crooked neck. It's just these are some of the best.
VO:It was a it was a family of carvers. They have a very distinct style based off of Cobb Island style. Yeah. These are these are masterpieces right here.
Katie Burke:Oh, yeah. Just gorgeous. And it's like and they used the materials they had. Right? They didn't they made the best out of they found the right thing and they made it work and they created the geese that way.
Corey Rodgers:I think I think one thing to bring up too is when considering painting these, like Catherine Elliston, who we were talking about earlier, you know, she was probably painting a decoy in ten to fifteen minutes because they're painting wet on wet paint. And so, you know, they were doing it quickly, but to be able to do something that like highly sophisticated that quickly is really like an incredible feat and to make any of it, you know, paint any of these birds that quickly.
Katie Burke:Alright. These are yeah. This is so when I think of like super detailed paint in your area of the world, Zach, I think of these birds.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. The rind rindals.
Katie Burke:And those, that's wet on wet too. Right?
Corey Rodgers:I would imagine.
Katie Burke:I mean
Corey Rodgers:You know, I think he's he he spent a lot of time on his game.
Katie Burke:He had to.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. I don't think he did much from what I've from what I've heard from Joe. You know, he lived to hunt and lived to make decoys. He didn't spend his time doing too much else. So I would say those those are actually probably labored over more than any of the other we've seen, and it shows.
Katie Burke:Oh, yeah. A 100%. I guess a good example would be to show you two different like though these are together, I didn't get them separate. So, this and I like the hold on. So the crow here is in front and the Lincoln's in back, but then if you go so those were working birds versus these right, like, the decorative ones down here.
Corey Rodgers:Yes. Gorgeous.
Katie Burke:Or the showcase of the collection. That snaky head crowd, there's there's not much better. Yeah.
VO:Just beautiful.
Katie Burke:I worry about it being shipped.
Corey Rodgers:It'll do They
VO:do a good job.
Katie Burke:Yeah. They're making I think it's coming in a formed crate.
VO:I mean, if you look at it, you look at the great carving of the crossed primary wings on the back there, the the tail feathers, the beautiful wet on wet paint along the sides, that's really sensitive the way he crooks that neck. Like, that's some amazing wood, you know, woodwork right there. That bill carbonate?
Corey Rodgers:Oh, yes.
Katie Burke:I mean, these are decorative too. Right? These weren't made to hunt over versus the one we were just looking at before, which is Yeah. Right here.
VO:Yeah. They were made for his patron, Harry v Long.
Katie Burke:Yeah. Yeah. And that's a working corral in front and then the Lincolns in the back.
VO:Yeah. He had different grades of decoys that he would produce in terms of his working decoys. And, you know, this is the one in front is a pretty beautiful bird, but it's not as highly decorative in terms of its carving.
Katie Burke:No. But even the bill on that thing is still Oh, yeah.
VO:You you can't go wrong with a crow. Like, it's just beautiful.
Corey Rodgers:And that haze that hazy That paint. Yeah. Treatment is a deaf you know, a definitive crawl aspect. Yeah.
Katie Burke:I just love though these. I can't wait for them to be mine for however long they'll be here, a year and so. It'd be nice to see
VO:those next to the Mastons that we were talking about earlier because it's a very different approach.
Katie Burke:Well, they won't be next to them. They'll be
VO:in their
Katie Burke:own In the same room. Right in so those will be in a like, their own pedestal case, and then the two Lincolns will be together right next to them, which yeah. I love those as well. I like that humpback on that back one. And then, of course, right there is the saffron.
VO:That's the one I saw in his office, in his conference room, and I almost passed out like the bird. It was reeling. I had never seen it, and it's much larger than you think.
Katie Burke:Oh, yeah. It's a it's a and it's like, I mean, it's not it's just like so it's so well constructed. Like, there is like, one of the biggest problems with all decoys is that it it can break. This thing is perfect for construction.
Corey Rodgers:It's it's That that decoy was made to go into battle.
VO:Yes. And looking at it, you can see there are shot holes in it and it's seen it's it's got its war scars. Yeah.
Katie Burke:Yeah. And it's not only is it so functional, it depicts a sleeping goose perfectly.
VO:Like And
Corey Rodgers:I think that's something worthy of bringing up here is is sort of the natural patina and the the the worn used surface quality of some of this paint is is actually, you know, sought after by a lot of collectors. Not always looking for the most pristine examples, but something that that has become beautiful over time by its through its use. Yeah. That's fascinating.
Katie Burke:Yeah. That's a good point to bring up because and maybe I'll have a better answer for this, but or at least your own opinion about why. But I would think that people who don't necessarily collect decoys, who aren't around decoys, you know, they think the better condition I would think the natural thing is go the better condition, the more detailed. Absolutely. One that you're gonna go to, kind of similar to those crowds.
Katie Burke:And those are some of the most expensive decoys out there. Like, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't necessarily mean one that isn't isn't almost as as close to being as valuable like this effort right here. How do you explain to someone who doesn't quite understand that, like, how would you because that gets asked me a lot because I do the podcast, like, do you explain why a decoy that maybe isn't as good of a condition is still extremely valuable or sought after?
Corey Rodgers:I think for me, when visitors ask, you know, if we're looking at a really a working decoy that's been used quite a bit, and it's about the why they were made. I mean, these were made to be tools to to hunt over. Most of them were not made to be decorative, and and the that survive that are in exceptional condition like what what Tim has is maybe one of one or one of three, so it's very rare to see those examples. So really that that's pretty much it is is they were used as as they were intended to be.
Katie Burke:Here's another great used one just so we can have another one to look at. Yeah.
VO:I think it also comes down to what your personal preferences are. If you like the pristine decorative birds, there are collectors who specialize in collecting those, and they're no less valid. I mean, they're constructed in the same way. But I think to Zach's point, if you're someone who's collecting, you know, working decoys, you want that you're you're a hunter yourself probably or have some experience with hunting, and you want that to be part of your collection. You want that history and association and the fact that these things were used and shot over.
VO:And it makes it, from my perspective, more valuable because they survive being shot. Like, that's like, how many of these great masterpiece decoys have we lost over the years because they were being used as tools? That's sort of the the big question for me. But, yeah, gorgeous, gorgeous works of art that were functional. And, yeah, just beautiful.
Katie Burke:And I've heard Go ahead.
Corey Rodgers:Heard many stories about decoys. You know, wintertime things get got cold, decoys got thrown in the furnace. So many, you know, who at the time, they didn't they weren't looking at these as, you know, art forms to put under under glass. These were used as survival tools, and if they needed to get warm, they'd throw them in the oven.
Katie Burke:No. I've also heard many a story of, like, decoys and giant bonfires when plastics came out, like, oh, well, we don't we don't need this anymore.
VO:Didn't have to repaint the plastic ones.
Katie Burke:Nope. Just buy new ones. Okay. So let me see on here. Speaking okay.
Katie Burke:So I wanna talk a little bit about I have a couple of pictures of some alright. First, have a question for you, Zach. Who made them?
Corey Rodgers:I don't know.
Katie Burke:It's debated.
Corey Rodgers:You know, I've seen Elliston's name on those. I've seen Purdue's name on those. I can I I really don't know? I I mean, they don't look to me like the same maker that made the Purdue decoys that we're looking at before that are absolutely came out of Charlie's workshop. I don't know the provenance on these and where they came from.
Corey Rodgers:I mean, you know, some early Purdue's have these multiple piece bodies. He did make three piece pintails. This is early on. So they may have been really early Purdue geese. You know, Elliston and Purdue were working at the, know, Elliston before Purdue, so maybe there was some influence there.
Corey Rodgers:Maybe they were leftover cardings that were were later painted or I'm really not sure. But I think I think Tim attributes them to Purdue.
Katie Burke:So, yeah, they
Corey Rodgers:We'll think Steve and Colin have Steve O'Brien and Kyle McNair have attributed them to Purdue.
Katie Burke:Yeah. So we put them in the book as attributed to Purdue. Though I had to fight Colin over it because he he doesn't attribute it to them anymore. He says it is them. So but I I didn't want just in case and this is such a decoy community, like, thing.
VO:It really is.
Katie Burke:But I didn't want to put a firm thing. I was like, I'm not putting a firm answer on that because one person who means something in the decoy community will say, no. That's not a Purdue, and then the whole book is discredited. We made sure. Yeah.
Katie Burke:I put a we put a tribute in the book, but yeah.
Corey Rodgers:Would trust Colin, though. He's seen a lot of birds.
Katie Burke:Yeah. He but he couldn't I will say he said yes, but he still didn't argue with me that long. So I don't think he's a 100%, but he's pretty he's pretty close. Alright. So we've talked about
Corey Rodgers:Those are small geese. I've I've handled
Katie Burke:those geese before. They look like they should be big.
Corey Rodgers:They're small. Yeah. They look they're deceiving. Wait wait until you see them.
Katie Burke:Well, I mean, the the Illinois River area geese are on the smaller side for the most part. I mean, besides the Schoenhiders, but Yeah. The Perdues and Ellisons are
Corey Rodgers:smaller. Yeah.
Katie Burke:Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. What was oh, let's talk about some well, who did we miss? I just wanna show this one real quick because it's really pretty, the Brady.
Katie Burke:I love that one. But okay. Let's talk about so we only have a few contemporary guys that we did. I only have two pictures on here, but we did do some we did include contemporary carvers in the collection for the exhibit and in the book. There's more in the exhibit than they're in the book but we made sure to do a few.
Katie Burke:By contemporary for the book because, you know, wherever you're talking, it depends on who you're talking to, what you consider contemporary. It's living. They are alive. These carvers are alive. So because, yeah, like, when you talk to decoy people, certain ones don't yeah.
Katie Burke:You know what I'm talking about. Like, certain it has to be, like, a certain I don't know. Some people are dead that are still considered contemporary, but for the book, we only went with. So I have this Mark McNair, which I love this one. This is an early one of his.
Katie Burke:He has Tim has this is probably my favorite one of his. He has, like, a a little bit later one that's like a Mark, like Mark's original style and then he also has a Cobb style by Mark, but I particularly love this one by Mark. But, yeah, this is I think eighties, '84, so pre Colin existence.
Corey Rodgers:Pre Colin. Pre Colin Mark.
Katie Burke:Pre Colin Mark. But I love this one. It's very
Corey Rodgers:Or else have raised or Ian would have been in the mix by then. Yes. Maybe.
Katie Burke:He he would have been a very small person.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. So we were very fortunate recently as of less than a month ago to have Mark and Colin to the museum. And Mark did a live demonstration in the lobby of the museum where he he hatcheted out a decoy body and and showed everybody the process. He's an exceptional person. He's I mean, he's much more than a decoy maker.
Corey Rodgers:He he is an artist in the way that he speaks, in the way that he talks about these birds, and you can I mean, I just saw it comes out in the in the painting and the carving of his decoys? He's fascinated in in so many things beyond what I thought. He's he's really interested in ancient art and cultures from all over the world and how, you know, art forms how art forms inform other art forms in different parts of the country. And I think probably as a as a result of these regional differences of looking at decoys from all over the all over the country. He has looked at a lot of yeast to come to this goose Yeah.
Corey Rodgers:Which is pretty fascinating.
VO:Yeah. Now I like about Mark. Oh, sorry, Katie. Go ahead. I was gonna say, thing I like about Mark is that he has this very innate talent to be able to work in the style of other decoy artists and but at the same time, retain his own carving characteristics.
VO:So he he does things that are homages to past great decoy carvers, but you know immediately that it's a Mark McNair. I mean, it's it just has a look to it. And like Zach says, he's just the sweetest person on earth, really great guy, extremely talented, and has started he sired a whole dynasty of a a family of carvers who are also equally talented. Yes. Ian and Colin.
Katie Burke:Speaking of people who can emulate, I have you you can probably guess who it's gonna be. Ta da. Cameron. So this is one of the ones that he has from Cameron. He has quite a few stuff from Cameron.
Katie Burke:He has this one and then he has these heads, these stick up heads that cam that just made this year for him. He has a weathervane that's kind of similar to the but bear like, as you, like, were mentioning, kind of, like, it's similar to the Kroll weathervane, but it's very much Cameron. Like, as you're saying with with Mark, like, has he can do stuff like this that emulates other like, this is very Cobb, like, but it's you know it's not you know it's a Cameron when you look at it. And how he does this paint treatment to make it look this old?
Corey Rodgers:I think Cameron, he just can't help himself. Like, he he wants to be from that from that period of time. He loves that old, you know, those old working decoys so much. And, you know, to get the surface quality of like that safford, you've got to put it through a hundred years of use, and there's just few things that survive with that beautiful surface. He I think that surface is what he loves so much, and he's got exceptional talent to be able to create create that.
Katie Burke:Yeah. Like, for the audience sake who's looking at this goose, it is not old. This is, like, maybe fifteen years at the top, like and it's looked like this from the beginning. I mean, just look at the bill at the end of that, how he got that wear. He is he is exceptional, and, yeah, he does.
Katie Burke:I think he wants to be these guys in some way.
Corey Rodgers:Oh, yeah. Oh, he is one of those guys. Yeah.
Katie Burke:And he learned from Mark early on in his career. He went he moved to Virginia. Like, he's been on the podcast, so, like, you can go back and listen to his story, but, yeah, he leaves South Carolina, goes to Virginia to become a decoy carver.
VO:And he studies the actual real birds real close and sometimes does restoration.
Corey Rodgers:Mhmm.
VO:Right, Zach? On historical egoys. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Burke:He used he doesn't really do that much restoration anymore, but he did for a while earlier in his career, so that informed a lot of what he was doing later. Alright. Since we're getting kind of towards the end, let me see. Let me go back. Okay.
Katie Burke:So I have two questions for both of you before we end. Okay. I'll make Corey go first. Corey, so how do you plan to, do you plan to incorporate the Barber collection with Tim's and do you have an idea of what you're planning to do with that and how you're planning to use that? I mean, obviously, the Osgoodeese, but Exactly.
Katie Burke:So there are so
VO:many ways that Tim's collection dovetails with our own his collection. We have the Joel Barber collection that Katie was alluding to. He was the the grandfather or father of decoy collecting. He was an architect. He loved decoys so much.
VO:He wrote the first book dedicated to the subject in 1934. And so the museum acquired it after his death in 1952, and included in that collection of over 300 decoys, there were some really great Canada goose decoys. So it's gonna be nice to integrate Tim's collection collection with our own. He was very adamant when we talked about bringing the exhibition here that he would like to see sort of his pieces exhibited along sort of our masterpieces. So, you know, our galleries are about 12 2,500 square feet, so it'll be, I think, less than what you have, Katie.
VO:So it'll be a little bit more truncated in terms of or bridged in its design, but, you know, I I think that we're looking to do less of the whistles and calls and stuff like that and do more of the birds.
Katie Burke:Yeah. I have a lot of art as well too.
VO:Yeah. So
Katie Burke:Zach, since you your collection is so regionally focused, how do you do you plan to kind of tie that into Tim's and how are you planning to kind of incorporate yours as well?
Corey Rodgers:Well, we've got a space that's dedicated to the Center for American Decoys, so I think Tim's show is gonna be Tim's show. It's gonna be the Peterson collection, and then right around the corner will be the Illinois River material.
Katie Burke:Yeah. So he does have it divided up for me by he has it divided up kind of regionally.
Corey Rodgers:I think I think we're gonna divide it kind of into seven seven regions, and there will be a focus on chain hider. Whether or not I can, you know, get the troops back together, I'm not sure, but we'll try.
Katie Burke:Yeah. How do you know where they all are?
Corey Rodgers:I know almost all of them. Two, I've been told are not won't be the lender will not be excited to to loan them.
Katie Burke:Well, you got your work. You got a you got a year and a half.
Corey Rodgers:We'll try or invest.
VO:Sick John on them.
Katie Burke:Yeah. Exactly.
Corey Rodgers:Just to have five in the museum will be will
Katie Burke:be Yeah. Yeah. That's a good job for Dieter. Let John Dieter go do that for you. Yeah.
Katie Burke:He's really great at convincing people to do stuff. Alright. Alright. Is there so before we go, do y'all have anything going on at y'all's museums coming up and before, obviously, you get the Peterson collection that y'all wanna mention. Why go to the Peoria Riverfront Museum?
Corey Rodgers:Why go to the Peoria well, so starting in 2026, which will be the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of America, the semi sanguineal sesquineal.
Katie Burke:I don't know. Good job.
Corey Rodgers:Coming up. So we have big plans. We have a documents exhibition we're calling Promise of Liberty, and actually, we're our guest curator for that exhibit is Ken Burns, the famous documentarian.
Katie Burke:Was at Tim's when I was there. He well, he came the day after me. I didn't meet him. I missed him. He came the day after me to because Tim has a huge Native American art collection.
Katie Burke:And he came the day after me because he was doing a documentary on buffalo or bison or whatever. Yeah.
Corey Rodgers:The American buffalo.
Katie Burke:Yeah. Some of those paintings in that documentary are Tim's.
Corey Rodgers:That's simply horrible.
Katie Burke:He knows everybody.
Corey Rodgers:Yeah. Tim is a collector of many he's got some great Lewis and Clark material that we're gonna include in the America two fifty program.
Katie Burke:Oh, nice.
Corey Rodgers:So that'll be a year long exhibit here at the museum including over 50 major important American documents. We'll have two printings of the declaration as well as, you know, emancipation proclamation, thirteen, fourteen, fifteenth amendment, sort of this revisiting the promise of the declaration through time and and trying to tell two hundred and fifty years of American history.
Katie Burke:So Good luck.
Corey Rodgers:We've got our work cut out for us, but it's gonna be an exceptional show.
Katie Burke:When does that open?
Corey Rodgers:It'll open up January '26.
Katie Burke:Thanks. Alright, Corey. You're up.
VO:Well, speaking of Native American, we have a contemporary exhibition up right now, Native American artists that all work with sound, and the exhibition is interactive, and that sort of presages this new building that we're building, the Perry Center for Indigenous Art, and it will open in 2027. But I don't wanna discourage people from going to see the exhibition at in Memphis, and I don't wanna discourage them from going to see it in Peoria. But I will plug that around the same time that it opens up here in 2028, I'll be doing an exhibition called hide and chic, and it's all about camouflage and design and art. So if you if you're interested in camouflage and the history of camouflage and decoys, come see us.
Katie Burke:Nice. So I did a little one for just DU branded stuff. So if you need any information on camo Oh, yeah.
VO:I need I need catalog contributors too, so if y'all wanna write for the catalog, let me know.
Katie Burke:Yeah. I did a whole exhibit with, there's this really great kid oh, he's not a kid. He's, like, my he's not much younger than me. There's this great guy out there. He started a company called Camo Retro.
Katie Burke:Yeah. And so it's like Poshmark for camo clothing, and so I wanted to do something for because Ducks Unlimited has a lot of sponsored camo, a big history of sponsored camo that goes back to the six fifth like, well, sixties when camo really kinda started being used for waterfowlers, and he helped me locate tons of those pieces, and, yeah, it was awesome. He's really fun to work with, so if you're ever Let's let's talk him Let's
VO:talk about Camo later. In Memphis. Yeah.
Katie Burke:Yeah. He'll be there. I can introduce him to you. Perfect. Even better.
Katie Burke:Alright. Well, thank you both for coming on. I really appreciate it. It's always fun to get the duck curators in the room together.
VO:And thank you for having us.
Katie Burke:Yeah. And I'm excited to meet well, I'll see you again, Zach. I've met you in person. Well, I'm excited to meet you in person, Corey. I'm a
VO:lot shorter than you think.
Katie Burke:Are you as short as the McNairs?
VO:About the same size.
Katie Burke:He would kill me
VO:for that.
Katie Burke:I'm not very I'm a I'm a short person too, so Alright. Well, thank you both for coming on. I really appreciate this.
Corey Rodgers:You're welcome. Yep.
Katie Burke:Thank you. Thanks, Corey and Zach, for coming on the show. Thanks to our producers, Chris and Rachel, and thanks to you, our listener, for supporting wetlands and waterfowl conservation.
VO:Thank you for listening to the DU podcast, sponsored by Purina Pro Plan, the official performance dog food of Ducks Unlimited. Purina Pro Plan, always advancing. Also proudly sponsored by Bird Dog Whiskey and Cocktails. Whether you're winding down with your best friend or celebrating with your favorite crew, Bird Dog brings award winning flavor to every moment. Enjoy responsibly.
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