Ep. 710 - Inside Winchester: Innovations for Waterfowl Hunters
Hey, everybody. We're very excited to have Winchester in the studio with us today. We're gonna talk about some of their new releases this year, some releases that some of their shows that have been around for a long time. Stay tuned.
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VO:Can we do a mic check, please? Everybody, welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I'm your host, doctor Mike Brazier.
VO:I'm your host, Katie Burke.
VO:I'm your host, doctor Jared Hemphill. And I'm your host, Matt Harrison. Welcome
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Jimbo Robinson:Welcome back to another episode of the Ducks Unlimited podcast. We have an incredible partner in the studio with us today. But today, my cohost will be John Gordon, media manager of media productions. There you go, Jimbo. You got it.
Jimbo Robinson:Finally got it.
John Gordon:Finally got it.
Jimbo Robinson:Mister Jimmy Wilson, and no, he's not my brother, but Nathan Robinson from Winchester. We're so glad to have you guys here. Likewise.
Nathan Robinson:Happy to be Thanks for having us.
Jimbo Robinson:So you wanna give us a little bit about kinda what you do at Winchester before we get started?
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Sure. So I'm the Shot Show product manager. So all of our new products, I'm quarterbacking those through the organization, making sure they're the right products for our consumers and making sure we get them out there in time for the season. So pretty important job.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. I think quarterback's a a good description there because he's kind of in between manufacturing and sales and helping make sure we've got the right products in the marketplace at the right quantities and is involved from everything from new product development to pricing to demand planning.
Nathan Robinson:Wow. Yeah. Keeps me busy, but it's it's a ton of fun.
Jimbo Robinson:And you also get to make fun of the guy that says that, you know, the shell doesn't work the right way and you're like, you think it's the shooter? Like you did a minute ago?
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. I mean, if if if it shoots, probably it's it's definitely not the shooter. Yeah. Or maybe it is.
Jimbo Robinson:Yep. Good times. Nathan?
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. So I'm on the marketing side, and I am responsible for communicating about those products. So that's everything from media relations, working with writers and magazine editors, and then also going to events and being that face to face representative in front of the consumer. Absolutely. Then help with retail and everything that's outward facing.
Jimmy Wilson:I've got some role in trying to get the Winchester name out there.
Jimbo Robinson:Awesome. Well, I like to do a segment we call the flock shot here. I'm gonna ask you a question and we're gonna bounce back and forth and just you'll know the answer. It's pretty easy. If I don't know it, I'll make it up.
Jimbo Robinson:Chris, cue the button. Favorite color Gatorade?
Nathan Robinson:Oh, blue.
John Gordon:Do you Orange. Know
Jimbo Robinson:Do you know the name?
Nathan Robinson:Nope. Sure don't. I just know
Jimbo Robinson:it as blue.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. I don't know any names.
Jimbo Robinson:I think
John Gordon:orange is just orange,
Jimmy Wilson:I believe.
Jimbo Robinson:Alright. Semi auto. Do I
Jimmy Wilson:get a point for that?
Jimbo Robinson:No. Semi auto or over and under?
Nathan Robinson:Oh, it depends on the situation, but if I just gotta pick one semi auto.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. It depends on the species. For ducks, semi auto, for sure. For Upland, over and under.
Jimbo Robinson:LeBron or Jordan? Jordan. Jordan.
Jimmy Wilson:Let's come see this gray hair in my beard. It's them, Illinois. Yeah.
Jimbo Robinson:Of course. Yeah. I knew as soon as I asked that. Alright. Brady?
Jimbo Robinson:I'm going different today. I'm going different today. Brady or Mahomes? Don't know her. He doesn't watch the NFL.
Jimbo Robinson:Brady. Brady. Yeah.
Jimmy Wilson:I I don't even care about football. Sorry.
Nathan Robinson:That's only shoots.
Jimbo Robinson:Hunting season, I'm in the field. Well, I
Jimmy Wilson:know where you are, but
Jimbo Robinson:the last one, upland or waterfowl? Waterfowl, of course.
Jimmy Wilson:Thankfully, the seasons are split for most part, so I'd do both. Hit deer upland and then waterfowl. Gotta rotate I've got a Brittany, but my Brittany knows how to retrieve ducks. John's excited over here.
John Gordon:That's an upshot.
Jimmy Wilson:My Brittany retrieves ducks too. So
John Gordon:I went off into the English cocker world, man, which is a very, very interesting place to be, you know. Those little dogs, I don't know, man. There's I've never been around a birdier dog than English cocker. They they're just nutcase.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. They're a lot of fun. A lot of personality.
Jimbo Robinson:Yeah. Alright. My final question that I always ask, bourbon or tequila?
Nathan Robinson:Tequila. Bourbon.
Jimbo Robinson:Nice. We got our first tequila answer. Really? I am excited. Yeah.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Let's go get a some
Jimbo Robinson:tequila guy. Man. And but I well, thank you all. You you both pass, and I love doing the flock shot. Get to know a little bit.
Jimbo Robinson:Does he there weren't that bad?
Nathan Robinson:I was nervous.
Jimbo Robinson:No. He shouldn't have been. Well, let's talk about Ducks Unlimited in Winchester because we already had a debate, a little bit of debate in here about about this partnership, and and I made the mention of that we're coming up on on thirty years, and and it was like, yeah, maybe longer. I think the official documents say thirty, but we you know that it's been longer than that.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. Absolutely. And I think there's a lot of advertising even that you can tie it to that shows some Ducks Unlimited and Winchester involvement. And what we're saying is, so John Olin was an owner of Winchester for a period of time. It was formed by Oliver f Winchester, and then after World War one, there's some financial difficulties and it was available for sale, and Olin bought them and John was part of that and then ran the company for a long time.
Jimmy Wilson:And he's much of the brand of Winchester today cause he was an avid outdoorsman. He was an engineer, so he was very interested in perfecting processes and making the ammo products the best they could be. But conservation was his passion. And he was part of a SAMI board, which actually was the first company or the first organization that supported the what is the name of it? Aldo Leopold did some kind of big cross country analysis to start the conservation movement, and that was while John was at the helm of Sammy, and they're the ones that funded that.
Jimmy Wilson:And so his tentacles reach into a lot of different conservation groups, and we've been staying there to support those throughout the years because it's critical to our business and to our customers, and we wanna make sure there's lots of game into the future.
Jimbo Robinson:Long time supporter, but I guess as the the as the much as we can find, we think that the partnership started in '96, the official, we'll say the official corporate partnership in '96. Now I'm gonna have to go back to the library and see if I know, and and it's exciting. I think that there's only that we kinda know of, there's really two brands that have consistently or consecutively been a partner since then, and and from what I can find, War Eagle and Winchester, and I think when you look at those two brands in the industry and the outdoor industry, it it speaks a lot to to y'all and your support of Ducks Unlimited, and we're excited that y'all have y'all here today. And and I know that the listeners are super excited to hear about the the different waterfowl loads and kinda what you guys see for the 2025 season coming up, and I know I'm excited to hear y'all talk about them. So with that, let's let's start and start going through maybe some of your favorites and let's go through the whole waterfowl line.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Sure. Let's let's get into it. So, you know, let's let's start off with expert waterfowl.
Jimbo Robinson:The the basic.
Nathan Robinson:Right. But
Jimmy Wilson:I mean, to start with, and they buy the drinks. There's a lot of products on the table.
Nathan Robinson:There are.
John Gordon:Yeah. There are.
Jimmy Wilson:And that can be a little bit confusing sometimes for people at retail, so we try to simplify it and we'll go through those features and benefits today. But we have an option for every situation, every type of hunting scenario, and we're confident that somewhere in our line, there's a product that's gonna fit the need.
Jimbo Robinson:And I think to a lot of waterfowl hunters, the expert was where it started. I mean, I told y'all at lunch today, my dad, since so for thirty one years, he buys 12 gauge number two, three and a half inch experts from Max Prairie Wings. He's been doing it for thirty one years, and he goes opening the Friday before opening day in Arkansas every single year and buys them and and that's that's all I can remember him ever shooting my whole life. Awesome.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. That's great.
Jimbo Robinson:That's where it started.
Nathan Robinson:I mean, expert just flat out works. Mhmm.
Jimbo Robinson:So
Nathan Robinson:it works time after time and you can trust
Jimbo Robinson:And he'll tell
Nathan Robinson:you to to work to work. Yeah.
Jimbo Robinson:He will tell you all about it.
Nathan Robinson:Yep. And the value, you you can't beat it. No. So, know, 100% American made shotshell, works great, brings birds down, just dependable. Right?
Nathan Robinson:Right. So, yeah, it's it's an awesome product. I mean, we have we have our dry lock wad system in expert even just to give it extra water resistance because it's a waterfowl, right? Like, it's you're gonna get to your shells wet, you might take a dip in the water on accident and some stuff gets wet, but we've got that dry lock system in there to help keep Might that water out of the be a good time to go ahead
Jimmy Wilson:and introduce what dry lock is because that's a technology we have in a lot of our products, and so for those that don't know what it is, maybe we'll give them a quick lesson on that.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Sure. We we we were prepared for this. Right? So we we cut the shell open earlier.
Nathan Robinson:So, you know what? We might have trouble getting out of here, but
John Gordon:When when did the Drylok technology first come about, Nathan? I'm trying to think about it. It was in the nineties, wouldn't it?
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. It would have been when dry lock was introduced. It would have been part of that. So
Jimmy Wilson:1993. '93? Yeah.
John Gordon:That's what I thought. It because I remember before that, there were a lot of problems with shotshells getting wet. Right? And they wouldn't fire. Sure.
Nathan Robinson:Well, we can try to dig it out of the shell. Yeah.
Jimbo Robinson:Be careful.
Nathan Robinson:I know. Were talking about
Jimmy Wilson:We were talking about Expert. That was introduced 2006 is when we started Expert. Prior to that, it would've been
Jimbo Robinson:like a super x. Alright. I'm gonna show my age. When did the mass steel go through? When was lead made was illegal.
John Gordon:Most of nationwide, I think, was by 1991. By '91. Okay. Yeah. And but I shot I shot I had to shoot steel shells in the first steel shot zone in America.
John Gordon:It was 1983.
Jimbo Robinson:'83.
John Gordon:On the East Side Of Houston.
Jimbo Robinson:Yeah. Texas was first. Right?
John Gordon:Texas was first. It was here at Antablock National Wildlife Refuge. Yep. That land right there was the first steel shot zone in America. All came about there's a biologist, the Texas waterfowl program leader, Charles Dustenbeger, he was the first one.
John Gordon:He kept running across ducks having problems and and having being sick and dying, and he really was the first guy to really correlate the lead shot in that marsh to what was affecting those birds. And so that's where it all started was there. Wow. So when
Jimbo Robinson:did Winchester make the first steel waterfowl load?
Jimmy Wilson:So we were part of the initial testing to develop recommendations on steel shot. We worked with a guy named Tom Roster and did a bunch of testing on patterns and lethality because it was a new world for hunters and the ammo makers at the time, and so that's where we learned that density matters a lot and shot size has to adjust based off of the density. And so we're one of the very first products that was available commercially.
Nathan Robinson:Wow. Alright.
Jimmy Wilson:And it wasn't that long ago, so there still is a lot of information online about that.
Jimbo Robinson:Tri Lok.
Nathan Robinson:We got it dug
Jimmy Wilson:out. Alright.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. So it was tough to get out because it presses out against the the tube, right, to help seal it. So if you if you ever, you know, recover one of these from, you know, the field or whatever, if you take a look at it, this is the wad that's underneath the shock up. So it's kinda hard to see, maybe I can get a profile there, but it's shaped like an automotive seal where it has basically a lip. And it press that lip presses out against the the side of the hole to just keep water out.
Nathan Robinson:So that's gonna keep your powder dry. Right? So that's very important in a waterfowl load. We use this style wad in basically every waterfowl load we have or a variation of the style with that that lip seal design.
Jimbo Robinson:So the DRILOC shell's still available?
Nathan Robinson:Oh, yeah. Yep. And I'm
Jimbo Robinson:gonna ask questions just because I want to, you know, dig deep into this, but because Dryloc was a was a shell when I was I mean, when I I remember the Dryloc shell being a a a big shell and that technology, that that whole thought process being like, it was
John Gordon:a it was a revolutionary, really, you know, when it came
Jimbo Robinson:out. If you could support dry if you could afford dry lock, you you had made your own money. It's kinda how my dad said
Nathan Robinson:it Alright.
Jimbo Robinson:Back in the day.
Nathan Robinson:I mean, it used it's used back then and now, you know, premium round steel, you know, precision ground steel that's zinc plated for corrosion resistance, so that's part of that whole dry lock system. So you've got, you know, corrosion resistant plated steel shot, it's precision ground, so it's gonna fly very true pattern great. Then you've got that DRILOC double seal WAD, and then additionally we use a lacquered primer in DRILOC loads just to add more water resistance to the back end of that shell too to keep water from infiltrating into the primer.
Jimbo Robinson:Is that the difference in the dry lock and the and the expert?
Nathan Robinson:Yeah, pretty much. The expert doesn't get that that sealed primer and it doesn't have plated steel shot. So you get the wad though where, you know, most of the water is going to to try to infiltrate in. Right? The primers, it's it's a press seal, press fit with the, you know, the primer pieces going together.
Nathan Robinson:So it's pretty tough to get water in through it there anyway. We go the extra mile on dry lock and our other premium waterfowl loads and and lacquer that primer just to, you know, prevent it even better. But really it's that WOD that's that's really important in preventing water from coming through. So you get that in Expert. The shot that we use in Expert is it's not perfectly round.
Nathan Robinson:It still flies really great. You do see, you know, a percentage increase when you shoot dry lock though, you do patterns and count pellets in in circles, right, on on paper, but we know it brings down ducks and geese every year. There's no question.
Jimbo Robinson:Yeah. Yeah. When he makes that shot, he will make sure to let us know. So, I mean, I he yeah. It does work.
Jimbo Robinson:Yep. And it's like you said earlier, there's a there's a budget for everybody.
Nathan Robinson:That's right.
Jimbo Robinson:And and when in the world that that John and I work in, you know, we want as many waterfowl hunters as we can get, and and that's one thing I say is that there's a there's an there's an entrance into waterfowl hunting for everybody. And I mean, I I remember as a kid being able to go and buy experts at at Walmart and that
John Gordon:being a huge Oh, yeah. And they were less than $10 a box.
Jimbo Robinson:I know. And so alright. So we're moving on from expert. What's in your mind, what's the next where we go next?
Nathan Robinson:You know, dry lock would be the next step up in performance. So, you know, we kinda touched on that plate of steel shot. You got the full dry lock system with the the WAD plus the sealed primer, so and then it's really that that shot that differentiates it though, right, the precision ground plated steel shot. And then from there, now we get into new products. Right?
Jimbo Robinson:So that that's carried the waterfowl industry for y'all for long time. Yeah. And just stuck to what you knew. Well, blindside
Jimmy Wilson:came We had blindside since 02/2006, I think, and that had a great run and a lot of rabid customers. We got a lot of feedback at DUX when they found out that we're discontinuing it, but we felt like it had made its run and we wanted to try some new technology. We've got a lot of new things in development all the time, And so with all this new stuff coming out, it didn't make sense to continue to support more than we needed, make it too complicated.
Jimbo Robinson:I did not know that it wasn't coming back.
Jimmy Wilson:You're the bad news.
John Gordon:He's gonna cry off camera, I think.
Jimmy Wilson:For those that like it, it is still available right now, so stock up.
Jimbo Robinson:It's a legacy product now.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. There's still plenty out there. So, yeah, if you're looking for it, it's still there to get, but not for long.
Jimbo Robinson:Well, I think from what I've heard so far, everybody's gonna move on from blindside.
John Gordon:Well, I'm just looking at these two loads right here that I'm really intrigued about Last Call and Final Pass, you know, that that's really stepped into another realm from far as I can tell. Absolutely. Different, you know, just a different level.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah, so Final Pass is probably the next step up from DRILOCK in performance. It's built very similar to DRILOCK. You know, we still have the DRILOCK WAD in there, the sealed primer, and we use, again, precision ground steel shot. But we use blended payloads in final pass. So you'll either get a b b blended with a one and a half, so a half size shot.
Nathan Robinson:Right? So it's in between a one and a two helps increase that pellet count a little bit more versus, know, using a a two paired with that b b, you do a one and a half. Or so you're gonna get more penetration with the one and a So more suited for geese. Right? On the the duck load side of it though, you'll have a two and a half paired with a four.
Nathan Robinson:So that two and a half is gonna, you know, increase your pellet count up from having twos.
John Gordon:Y'all even changed the pictures
Jimbo Robinson:of them on there on the front of the box. Was sitting here looking I was looking at that one and I was going, man, this is a goose load and then and I saw there's they've got the geese on there. That's really that mean
Nathan Robinson:that It's attention to detail. Matters. Right?
Jimbo Robinson:Absolutely. Yeah. And and it's what caught my eye when I looked at both of these boxes outside of that. Why the half?
Nathan Robinson:Well, it helps
Jimbo Robinson:Marketing the marketing guy is smiling and laughing over here.
Jimmy Wilson:I call it the compromise.
Jimbo Robinson:I know what he's thinking.
Nathan Robinson:It's in between. It's in between. Right?
Jimbo Robinson:It's something different.
Jimmy Wilson:When you're talking to consumers, there's always this debate about what's the right shot size.
Jimbo Robinson:What is it?
Jimmy Wilson:And you can, you know, have some long arguments over whether you should be using twos or fours or in Arkansas, threes are really popular. And so we've got all these different options, and even then, you know, there's this decision at the register, which one am I gonna buy? So now you don't have to make a decision. You can get both. It's just blended in there together.
Jimbo Robinson:And I think John would agree that debate is becoming more common now in Arkansas and Oh, yeah. In area. Right? I mean, this area because of the opportunity that people have to shoot ducks and geese at the same time
John Gordon:in their hunting in Arkansas.
Jimbo Robinson:If for certain situations.
John Gordon:You run-in especially in fields. Right? Right. You run an inspection of snows every every duck hunt you make.
Jimbo Robinson:Yep. And so Or
Jimmy Wilson:you can just use the same shell for early teal and then your regular season and maybe even into Canada goose and know that you've got, you know, dense pattern because of the smaller shot size, but then you still got that heavy hitter with the larger.
Jimbo Robinson:And I think that two and a half four fills that. Right?
John Gordon:I think that that'd a smoking teal load and big ducks.
Jimbo Robinson:For everything. Right. And not I yeah. That's because the one and a half over here, right, and then you got two and a half, they're not that far apart.
Nathan Robinson:No. But the one and a half's gonna, you know, increase your penetration a little bit over a two. Right? Absolutely. So Yeah.
Nathan Robinson:So it's more closer to that b b to, you know, suited more for, you know, large ducks or
Jimbo Robinson:In y'all's opinion, in your opinion, what why is the stacked shot? There's got to be I understand the penetration in the double, but I've struggled for years trying to understand why all of sudden the stacked load. Is it because more? Is it because So
Nathan Robinson:stacked actually in Final Pass, that's that shot's not stacked. So if you look at the back, we have it intermixed in there and, know, we we cut one open earlier, let's we can pull this out and dump the
Jimbo Robinson:It's not stacked, but it's blended. Fills more space. That's what that's what you always heard was it fills more space.
Nathan Robinson:You can increase you can increase your pellet count. Right. So, like, that final pass has about two zero five pellets in the payload verse verse a, like, a standard expert one and an eighth ounce number two steel is only gonna have about a 140 pellets. So you get quite a few more. So, yeah, it Oh, two colors.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. So we've copper plated the half size shot. So if you if you find a copper plated pellet and you're shooting final pass, it's either a two and a half or it's a one and a half. So and they're just they're blended in there at about a fifty fifty ratio.
Jimmy Wilson:Look how shiny it is. It is. Yeah. It takes a lot of work for us to polish each one of those by hand.
John Gordon:Yeah. You got a bunch of l's in there. Right? Sitting there.
Jimbo Robinson:Well Yeah.
Jimmy Wilson:It looks like jewelry though when you pour it out
Jimbo Robinson:like that. It does. It does have a a sparkle to it. And that's When I see like that, they're not that pretty. Most of the time, they've they're either in they've been in my on my tooth or or you pull one out when you when you're cleaning birds, but that's interesting, the two different colors.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. So the sizes aren't that far apart, right? So we wanted to find a way to, you know, visually identify the difference. So the half size shots have copper plating, the standard shot sizes have the bright zinc plating. So both highly resistant to corrosion, so you've got the corrosion protection there if your shells do get wet.
Nathan Robinson:I mean, they're like perfectly round, it's almost ball bearing grade.
Jimbo Robinson:Yeah. They're impossible to pick up. Yeah. That's interesting. There's not much John two.
Jimbo Robinson:No. Returning to one and
John Gordon:a half and a b b? Yeah.
Jimbo Robinson:No. This is Is that what this one is?
Nathan Robinson:This this is the two and
Jimmy Wilson:a half.
John Gordon:Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan Robinson:They're a little smaller.
John Gordon:Okay. You can yeah. You can definitely tell the difference and I'm looking at them this way. But it's not that different. You're right.
John Gordon:And you you like I said, y'all done an amazing job with the with the Oh,
Nathan Robinson:the pure
John Gordon:with the consistency of them. Right? And I mean, and that that leads to a better pattern.
Nathan Robinson:Oh, for sure does. Yeah. Yep.
Jimbo Robinson:Mesmerizing. Well, but it's interesting, talk about how perfectly round they are, when you roll them, everything is moving at a very consistent, there's none going to the
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. None hang up
Jimbo Robinson:and not sitting there for a second. That's I mean, I was just looking at because that's gotta be something that's a trust, right, to to every shell is every pellet is made exactly the same.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. I mean, we probably don't have to do that performance wise, but it's that detail that just
Jimbo Robinson:That's what Winchester's putting brings
Nathan Robinson:all of the performance out of it.
Jimbo Robinson:Right? The American legend says it on the
Nathan Robinson:It's right.
Jimbo Robinson:It's marking paperwork. I mean, that's what it speaks to is that it's years and years of learning. Yep. Wad technology, has it changed much in these?
Nathan Robinson:No. Not really. I mean, it's a standard standard four pedal wad. Now it is extra thick. All of our steel shot wads are extra thick.
Nathan Robinson:They're I mean, just feel that it's it there's not a lot of flex to it. You know, you you cut open a lead target load, it's gonna have a flimsy wad in there, but we use a extra thick high density polyethylene plastic to to mold our steel shot wads and that's to protect your gun from the steel pellets. That that steel, it's hard. Right? It's it's not gonna deform.
Nathan Robinson:It's gonna just push out when it tries to accelerate down the bore and it's gonna try to squeeze through that plastic wad. So we use that extra thick, high dense plastic to prevent any steel from contacting your bore so that it doesn't score your bore and, you know, ruin a choke tube.
Jimbo Robinson:And that is, I'm not gonna say anything about anybody else's product, but that is that that choke tube has become an issue with a lot of I think as as things are getting faster, people's technology and wads are changing, that I've heard the choke tubes becoming issues, so that's
Nathan Robinson:I mean, we had a product that people complained about, right, and that was that diamond cut wad and blindside, and when we went to blindside too, if you remember, we we got away from that diamond cut wad because it was hanging up in studded chokes and and and causing, you know, poor patterns. So we went to a standard dry lock WAD in in blindside too, and that alleviated that problem. We made some changes to the shot too, you remember, you
Jimbo Robinson:know Mhmm.
Nathan Robinson:To help aerodynamics there and still retain that square shape that still gave you good patterns without the diamond wad, but then you could use any choke tube you wanted, so Yeah. You can paddle with any choke, but that that I'm just trying to get to the point of that wad works in any choke.
Jimbo Robinson:And that's been has that been the wad for for a long time?
Jimmy Wilson:Have different wads across different products, and as technology changes, we make modifications. Like the diamond cut wad functioned really great out of some choke tubes because it was designed to keep the shot column together further out of the bore of the barrel. Mhmm. And so it was a different way to get to the same end result as the stripper or stud choke tubes, but they didn't go well together. Right.
Jimmy Wilson:And so if you had a after special aftermarket choke, it might not like that style of wad, and that was causing problems with patterns for those people, so we simplified it. But, yeah, there's different ways we can modify all the components to improve performance. And because of our scale, we're able to do that more than some of the competition because we're producing so much ammo and we have so many resources studying that every day.
Jimbo Robinson:And you can definitely feel the difference in in this in this wad for sure.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. It's stiff. Absolutely. Yep. So we have different different designs of this but they all, you know, use that same, you know, technology, thick pedals, high density plastic.
Nathan Robinson:We also, when we feed these into the loader, this is, know, not many people probably know this, but it it comes in as just a solid wad. There's no pedals on it. And then we cut the pedals in on the loader. And the reason we do that is so that there's really no space between the pedals. If you were to mold those pedals in, there has to be a little gap there.
Nathan Robinson:Now you can design it to where they try to close-up, but the if you do it this way, there's really no gap that that pellet can push through. It can try to push through that that gap there, but it's not gonna get far enough to do any damage to your barrel. So
Jimbo Robinson:Alright. Go. The one that's been catching John's eye over here
John Gordon:the whole time. The the last call, baby. What a name.
Jimbo Robinson:The last call that duck or goose is gonna hear.
Nathan Robinson:That's right.
Jimbo Robinson:About this incredible technology that you'll have
Jimmy Wilson:in You kinda have to talk about both products
Jimbo Robinson:Right.
Jimmy Wilson:Introduce double shot since it's the newer one. We actually launched Last Call TSS last fall. Mhmm. There's a mouthful last fall, last call.
Nathan Robinson:It's a tongue twister.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. And so the technology we're seeing, they really got popularized by turkey hunters Yeah. Integrating TSS into their loads and the performance enhancements that that brings to the table. We thought we'd go ahead and bring it over to the waterfowl side, and we wanted to be able to say we have the best product out there. And it comes at a premium, it's not cheap, but it's the best materials, the best construction, and your best patterning and most lethal load available.
Jimmy Wilson:And I
Jimbo Robinson:think for for the mass, the general public, when TSS started, everybody thought it was a new brand in the ammo world. Yeah. Right? And I was, what are
Nathan Robinson:you shooting?
Jimbo Robinson:I'm shooting TSS. What kind? TSS. So talk about the TSS technology and what what it has to be to be considered TSS.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. So so TSS stands for tungsten super shot and that refers to a specific density of tungsten shot. So tungsten shot can have a density that ranges depending on how much tungsten is actually used to make the shot. You know, that that shot's an alloy of of different powdered metals basically. The more TSS you put or sorry.
Nathan Robinson:The more tungsten you put in that shot, the more, you know, density you pick up. So TSS shot has to be 18 grams per cc, you know, density. If it's less than that, it's not TSS shot. It's just tungsten shot with a lower density. But if you see TSS, that means that it's, you know, the highest you can get, 18 grams per cc.
Nathan Robinson:So
Jimbo Robinson:And is most TSS 18?
Nathan Robinson:It has to be. Right? It's Right.
Jimbo Robinson:It could be higher.
Nathan Robinson:You you really can't get higher than that. The the manufacturing process doesn't really allow for it. Cool. So 18 is considered the max. You can go less, right?
Jimbo Robinson:Yeah. And TSS.
Jimmy Wilson:We've been there too. That's the thing I don't think some people realize is we've had tungsten products in the past. TSS is newer to the scene, that's really been popularized in the last five, six years, but we've had tungsten products that have come and gone from our line because there's always changes in the marketplace and what people are willing to spend, and so we used to have a tungsten product and got rid of it and it was
Nathan Robinson:It's called extended range if you
Jimbo Robinson:Is that
Jimmy Wilson:12 grams per cubic centimeters, 14?
Nathan Robinson:It was 12 or 13.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. Somewhere in that range. So it wasn't as dense as the TSS that we're using now.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Still a great product. Not TSS.
Jimmy Wilson:And that allows you to get that performance at or above the expectations of where you would see lead in the past. And so you used to be able to shoot a lot smaller shot size with lead, and then we had to shift to the larger steel, and now we're going back to the smaller shot size with products like bismuth and tungsten.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. I mean, example, steel has a density of like 7.9, so you're with TSS, you're twice as dense.
John Gordon:Twice as dense.
Jimbo Robinson:Which means
Nathan Robinson:if you had the same amount volume wise, it's gonna weigh twice as much. So and that that lets you use smaller shot sizes that, you know, are more aerodynamic because they they don't lose velocity when they're flying down range, so they're gonna retain more energy. It's like a a bus in a sports car going down a hill. Right? Like, the bus is is gonna slow down because it's got all that air pushing back against it.
Nathan Robinson:That's like a steel pellet. But a TSS pellet's like a sports car going down the hill, you know, with gravity pulling them down, that that sports car is gonna make it down there quicker.
Jimbo Robinson:Right. Did we do you have one of the TSS?
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. So Do I need
Jimbo Robinson:to clear the plate here?
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Or we can try to keep it separate, then you you can just pick them out one by one later. I will. I'm kidding.
Jimbo Robinson:All over.
John Gordon:So So let's see. Double shot, is that just a single sized pellet and then last call is is is blended?
Jimmy Wilson:So last call is a 100% TSS shot. Double shot is the stacked load, and so it uses a mix of TSS and steel so that you get some of the benefits of tungsten, but it's not as expensive as the 100% load. Gotcha. Okay.
Nathan Robinson:There's a little bit of it in there. Right.
Jimbo Robinson:Oh, yeah.
Nathan Robinson:There it is. Those little bitty guys. They're hard to see. They're all mixed in here now, but they're hard to see.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. They hide behind the bigger palace. You talked about not being able to see much difference in shot size when you're looking steel to steel. There you can really see it. And those have very similar energies, but it's much smaller, so you have more pellets in your pattern.
Nathan Robinson:So if we shoot gel with this load
Jimbo Robinson:Mhmm.
Nathan Robinson:That TSS is gonna go about five to five and a half inches in 10% ballistic gel where that number two and a half is gonna go about three and a quarter inches, maybe three and a half inches. So you get substantially more penetration from that little pellet because it's it's so dense.
Jimbo Robinson:Chris, can we zoom in on this? Nope. Alright. Well, it is there on this plate and it is And it it is hard to see. It is hard to
John Gordon:see. Yeah. From with the
Jimbo Robinson:with those pellets. But but the density of that is what makes it what it is. Right. It makes it fly, true, I would assume.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. It's it's just as round as the steel. So the TSS shot, the way it's made, it's like precision ground as well. So it's very aerodynamic. What we see is when we do patterns, the TSS stays tighter.
Nathan Robinson:So if you pattern, like, final pass against last call double shot, you'll see a tighter grouping of pellets in the core of the pattern. So they both have about the same pellet count, actually. So if you compare, you know, our two and a half and our number nine TSS pellet count to, you know, the final pass two and a half and four, which is, you know, steel, blend it with steel, the final pass has 205 pellets. The last call double shot has 210 pellets, and 30% of those pellets, you know, will be those smaller
Jimbo Robinson:TSS.
Nathan Robinson:TSS pellets.
Jimbo Robinson:Which gives it even though because they're I mean, obviously, maybe that's just we didn't get the same shot size out, but that those are bigger for sure.
Nathan Robinson:I think the copper is the same.
Jimbo Robinson:Oh, the copper is the same? Yeah. Okay. So that is a four. Yeah.
Jimbo Robinson:Okay.
Nathan Robinson:Well, no, this would be the two and a half.
Jimbo Robinson:Two and a Sorry.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. The fours are over here, that's the the bright silver, These are the two and a halfs and those are nines. The t
Jimbo Robinson:s nines. Sitting next to the t s s, they look so much bigger, but then when you kinda slide them together, you're right.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah.
Jimbo Robinson:They do. Interesting.
Nathan Robinson:You find one that escaped. Yep. One one bounced off.
Jimbo Robinson:It's amazing to think that that that that Oh,
John Gordon:I know it. So it's got
Jimmy Wilson:We had talked a little bit about blend versus stacked before. This one is stacked because the size and density of the tungsten makes it fly at a different speed than the steel, and so you don't want the tungsten in the back because it'll actually push its way past the steel and open up the pattern. And so we put the tungsten on last so that it's out front in the swarm, and the steel is gonna slow down once you get to those extended ranges, and your shot string's gonna lengthen a little bit, but it doesn't make your pattern any worse because they're not bumping into each other.
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Jimbo Robinson:What range does that TSS really get out to?
Nathan Robinson:I mean, you need to pattern your gun and choke two combination to know what it's gonna do, but you can go well past 40.
Jimbo Robinson:Well past 40.
Nathan Robinson:I'll shoot pattern, you know, pattern demos at 40, and if you if you look at the dent the pattern density of of your last call TSS, it's it's got range beyond 40. Whatever you're
Jimbo Robinson:comfortable with.
Jimmy Wilson:It's kinda interesting to look at the turkey world here because you routinely hear about people shooting turkeys at seventy, eighty plus yards. And so it still has energy that far that can kill. We don't suggest it like
Jimbo Robinson:That's truly the golden b b or golden pellet, right, that people talk about.
Jimmy Wilson:Well, especially on a fast moving bird.
Jimbo Robinson:Right.
Jimmy Wilson:I mean, that's the dynamics on waterfowl are a lot different. So trying to shoot a moving bird that far away is not a good idea. But what it does do for you is like, let's say you think the bird's a little closer than it actually is and you misjudged your distance, you're more likely to hit it at that further distance. So whatever your range is, we suggest you still stay at that normal range and you're gonna have tighter patterns, you're gonna have increased lethality because of that penetration and energy. But then if you mess up and the bird's a little further away, you can have confidence that it's still gonna do its job.
Nathan Robinson:Yep. Now remember those turkey loads are all TSS. So more like last call TSS, so that's gonna have, you know, much longer range capabilities than last call double shot. But as as we said, you're you're talking, you know, $50.50 bucks a box of 10 here, where here it's maybe $50 for 25. So a lot more affordable.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Yeah. So you may not have the the same range but you have almost the same range here, especially if you're comfortable with how your gun's shooting.
Jimbo Robinson:And John, I know that you you kinda see this, but when you see people talking about that shot string, Right? And that seems to be what people are talking about today when they're when they're comparing shells. How far what what does that distance truly look like? Let's say let's use 30. Right?
Jimbo Robinson:I like to tell my son that we'll stay in that 30 yard range. How far apart does this TSS get from the copper?
Nathan Robinson:You had a guess there? I don't know. I don't have that Yeah. That data committed to memory.
Jimbo Robinson:Well, I mean, I I Yeah.
Nathan Robinson:It's is it enough to matter?
Jimbo Robinson:Is it enough to matter?
Jimmy Wilson:You're talking
Nathan Robinson:Probably not.
Jimbo Robinson:Like mean, the of time
Jimmy Wilson:because it's traveling so fast. So if you measure it, it may look like it's a long string, but you're talking about fractions of a second before the next pellets hit, and so it really doesn't matter that much.
Nathan Robinson:If you're gonna miss, you're gonna miss. Yeah. Interesting.
Jimmy Wilson:The bigger thing is we don't want them bumping into each other at different velocities, and so you gotta have it stacked to keep that pattern dense. Oh, you know, one thing we didn't talk about that is really exciting is Last is available in sub gauge. And so we've seen this huge interest resurgence in sub gauge, and you can get that in four ten, 28, and 20 gauge. That's the Last Call TSS, and you've got a box of 20 gauge double shot there. Yeah.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. I'll put that
Jimbo Robinson:in front
Jimmy Wilson:of the camera. So there's 20 gauge. We didn't bring any four ten or anything, but it makes a four ten a legitimate duck gun that's equivalent to like a 12 gauge steel.
Nathan Robinson:I would say more more than a 12 gauge steel.
Jimbo Robinson:So Is in is is that can be you shoot that out of older guns?
Jimmy Wilson:Define older.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Probably not advisable. Right? I mean, a lot of those older guns don't have
Jimbo Robinson:So we're still
Nathan Robinson:proof steels.
Jimbo Robinson:Is still the way to go with some of those older.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. I would. I mean, you could probably take limited shots with it, but, I mean, if you have an older gun that's got sentimental value, you're on the risk of, you know, ringing the end of the barrel and I mean, like, I've got an old a five that I'd love to go hunt with, but I'm not gonna send.
John Gordon:So so don't take your old 42 out there and shoot TSS out of it, what you're saying?
Nathan Robinson:I wouldn't I wouldn't advise it, especially if it has sentimental value. Yeah. So, I mean, it's not like it's gonna blow up the barrel, but it could it could ring the end and Yeah.
John Gordon:Yeah. And, yeah, that would make me sick of my stomach.
Jimbo Robinson:I bet it would. Set here first on the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I won't take TSS Don't
John Gordon:take TSS when
Jimmy Wilson:you're old.
Jimbo Robinson:Somebody's gonna send us an email and say that
John Gordon:No.
Jimbo Robinson:They would do it all till last season.
Nathan Robinson:Oh, I'm sure.
John Gordon:I got a 1931.
Nathan Robinson:You can get away with it. I'm sure. Yeah.
Jimbo Robinson:First Sergeant heavy
John Gordon:duck gun. I'm I'm shooting out of it every day.
Jimbo Robinson:So what what made what made Last Call there was something about The Last Call that that made the double shot come out next. Was it the marketing guy may be able to say, hey, I know why, but Cost. Cost?
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. That's a big piece of it is, so we wanted to establish that best of the best Right. First. But then there's also the idea that not everybody's gonna spend $5 a shot for waterfowl hunting, and so it just made sense to take some of that technology and put it in a product that is more affordable or you can shoot more of without breaking the bank.
Nathan Robinson:And I mean, 12 gauge full TSS loads are incredible, but it's probably overkill for most situations. Right? So you can lower your cost and still have just as effective load with like I don't
Jimmy Wilson:know that there's any such thing as overkill. I've met a lot of guys who are still blasting away with 10 gauges.
Nathan Robinson:Hey. That's why we make this dry dock
Jimmy Wilson:right here.
Jimbo Robinson:Right?
Jimmy Wilson:All those 10 gauge fans would argue with you there. Yeah. Like your dad shooting the three and a half, he probably doesn't need that half No. We've got improvements in technology that make three inch equivalent or better than the old three and a half inch today, but you can't convince somebody that there's anything like too much.
Jimbo Robinson:No. And we gave him a 20 gauge for Christmas two years ago. I think he has three shots out of it, and they were all out back of hunt camp.
John Gordon:Well, you know, like I said, being a 10 gauge aficionado myself, man, I mean, for geese, there's nothing like a 10. Right? That's why I shoot one, you know, and
Jimmy Wilson:that's You're one of those,
Jimbo Robinson:Well, man, you know, I've
John Gordon:been hunting them so long that it just nothing like the impact of a 10 gauge on a goose.
Jimmy Wilson:Or on a hunter.
John Gordon:You know?
Jimmy Wilson:Well, I mean, I as soon as
Jimbo Robinson:a semi auto It's all
John Gordon:in fun. Is not bad. I mean, I got a I got a Browning Gold light, and it's well, it ain't it ain't light at all. It's a it's still a 10 pound gun. Right?
John Gordon:Yeah. So it doesn't kick any more than a than your average three inch 12
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. That weighs seven a great combo.
Jimbo Robinson:You're only exhausted after raising it, you know. Well, you don't
John Gordon:wanna carry that thing, like, across the Tundra or anything, man. You know? Yeah.
Jimbo Robinson:It must be
John Gordon:some of the John's. Know? I got John's specific thing. Use it.
Jimbo Robinson:Local volunteer Johnny Walker shoot still shoots. Yeah. That's what he shoots.
Jimmy Wilson:Same 10
John Gordon:gauge. I I shoot a lot of geese, you know, in Arkansas and and just but I've got a blind basically that I'll hunt geese out of in the field all the time, and that's when I take that 10 gauge out there. I'm not I'm not hoofing that thing all over the place.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. Well, we love 10 gauge users and Yeah. We're the biggest producer of 10 gauge, I think, now. But certainly not backed out of that market Yeah. Both on the gun and ammo side, and we definitely are committed to providing ammo for those guys that wanna use 10 gauge.
John Gordon:Yeah. That's right. The the 10 gauge is is really losing to where you've only got a very handful of manufacturers anymore for 10 gauge ammo.
Jimbo Robinson:Yeah. So
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. We watch it pretty closely to make sure that we always have it in stock. So we've got a loader dedicated to it that we we install in the in the factory when we need to
John Gordon:run it,
Nathan Robinson:pull them back out and
John Gordon:I've shot those 10 gauge BBs quite a bit in the dry lock and it's it's it's in a it's a it's it's a a devastating load, man. Gonna tell you on a damn spec, you know, at 40 yards, I mean, that's a crusher.
Jimbo Robinson:It's a beast of a shell.
John Gordon:Yes, it is.
Jimbo Robinson:So do you have any of the t s the straight t s s? I mean, I'd hate to say cut open a t s s y'all, but did you bring any with you?
Nathan Robinson:Yeah.
Jimmy Wilson:I think there's some These live ones
Nathan Robinson:are these are sevens and these are nines. Wanna see the little little nines again?
Jimbo Robinson:What I mean, whatever you want. I don't wanna ask you to cut one of these. I mean, that's but
Nathan Robinson:It's okay. We we we can make more. I
Jimbo Robinson:just think it'd be very cool to see what's
Jimmy Wilson:what's It's really up to you because we were gonna leave the samples behind for you to hunt with.
Jimbo Robinson:So Well, know you
Nathan Robinson:They gave
Jimbo Robinson:me that final chance If to watch down
Jimmy Wilson:you're willing to cut one of your shells open, we'll do it. Yeah. I got
Jimbo Robinson:I think it's worth it for the people to be able to see what a true TSS looks like on the inside.
John Gordon:I mean, you're talking about a a number nine payload that's a lot of pellets.
Nathan Robinson:You got your knife still? Oh, there it is. Thank you.
Jimbo Robinson:While we're while we are allowing him to cut this at his own risk for the for the benefit and the sake of all of us here at Ducks Unlimited No lying. Watching the podcast worldwide.
Nathan Robinson:Have you ever had anyone bleed on camera here?
Jimbo Robinson:No. But, you know, I'm not like the rest of
Jimmy Wilson:the Winchester employees bleed red, let me tell you.
John Gordon:Just don't hey. Hey. Just just don't tell Dave Marrone. It'll be alright.
Jimbo Robinson:No. Not yet. But I think it's
Jimmy Wilson:For folks at home, he is a trained professional. He has extensive
John Gordon:I'm background hoping it's sharp enough. It seems like it has been so far.
Jimbo Robinson:Non rotation, John. We're gonna get it.
John Gordon:Is that it? Non rotation? I
Jimbo Robinson:don't know.
Nathan Robinson:It's like using a dull can opener. You just gotta keep going around.
John Gordon:Yeah. That's not a very good knife. It's just it it does its job.
Jimbo Robinson:While while he's doing that There
Nathan Robinson:we go.
Jimbo Robinson:The Magnum Dove. Yeah. This one's sitting here. So you may notice a trend
Jimmy Wilson:here of a lot of mixed shots There
Nathan Robinson:it goes.
Jimmy Wilson:Oh. You're
John Gordon:talking about a lot of shot about to come out of this thing.
Nathan Robinson:You're gonna have it it's it's gonna be a permanent fixture of the the podcast.
John Gordon:Oh, podcast studio?
Jimbo Robinson:Yep. Well, it's worth it.
Jimmy Wilson:Is that showing up on camera? Maybe Here.
Nathan Robinson:You wanna dump this on the plate. Dump this over on the the 10 sign?
John Gordon:Yeah. That that's to me has always been the huge advantage of of the of the TSS is the ability ability to use very small shot sizes Yep. That increases your pellet count by tenfold. You know, my grandfather was always an advocate for number nines for quail loaves, right, because he wanted to use the smallest shot he could to get more shot in the pattern.
Jimmy Wilson:It doesn't take a whole lot to bring down a quail.
John Gordon:Well, it does. So
Jimmy Wilson:let number nine will work great for them. It will. For duck or goose, and for a dove too. Right?
John Gordon:I mean, you got seven and a half, nine for that
Jimbo Robinson:and the
Jimmy Wilson:Magnum Duff. So back to that, you'll see a trend of several different blended or variety shots in one shell. It makes sense to put it into a dove load too. Same thing. If you're debating on whether you need seven and a halfs, eights, nines, we've got one now has seven halves and nines, so you get the benefits of both Right.
Jimmy Wilson:Back to that compromise. So a lot of pellets in your pattern, but you still have the heft of the seven and a halfs for those further birds, make sure you got enough energy to knock them down. And that is the name describes it. It's a magnum load. That's what you want if you really wanna It's get your got big payload, it's got high velocity, and it's just built to be like the ultimate dove load.
John Gordon:That's an ounce and a quarter load. I mean, you could you know, not too many doves are gonna fly through that swarm really coming
Jimbo Robinson:And out of that as, you know, dove season's fastly approaching Dove shit. We're right on the cusp of Right on the cusp of it here in Tennessee. I mean, maybe the hottest dove, you know, show on the market right now.
John Gordon:I mean, I would think
Jimmy Wilson:John, we're talking at lunch how you can't even find it right now. No. And I've got some away our expectations.
Jimbo Robinson:That's why that box is empty. We didn't have any full
Jimmy Wilson:ones to bring down today.
John Gordon:I didn't have any shells.
Jimbo Robinson:I got real excited when I
John Gordon:saw this box. I got two cases in in my office, as
Jimmy Wilson:a matter of fact, they're going on
Jimbo Robinson:the road. When this is over. Y'all distract John for a little bit, get him in here. I'm gonna go steal one of them. But, yeah, and it caught my eye before I I mean, you know, this I told y'all I ordered it a couple weeks ago and and don't have it yet, but that's the Magnum Dove, and then that blended really was something that caught my eye, and I was really excited to see the high brass load and
John Gordon:see what happens with it. Is there gonna be a 28 gauge Magnum Dove?
Nathan Robinson:Not this year, but In the future. We'll keep that in mind. Yeah.
John Gordon:Yeah. I'm I'm a 28 fan. I love the 10 gauge, I love the 28. Right? So it's kind of an anomaly that, you know, I like I like the smaller guns, but my grandfather, he shot a 28 for quail.
John Gordon:So I was exposed to it at a very young age and I realized how effective that gun is, you know, from, you know, early on. So it's it's one of my favorites, and I think that would be a great addition to that.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. We've actually had a lot of new products in the 28 gauge bore diameter here in the last three years probably.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. I mean, it started with really introduction of 28 gauge three inch. Right? So we have
Jimbo Robinson:Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan Robinson:Waterfowl load, pheasant load. We have a we have a dove load in 20 gauge three inches as well. It's not magnum dove, but so we have a bismuth bismuth off the And, of course, you
John Gordon:got 28 gauge double a's, right, which work great
Jimbo Robinson:for for,
John Gordon:you know, for dove and quail.
Jimbo Robinson:We just talked about that at lunch too. Yeah. Why the dove load? What what I mean, I I know, but you don't it's not people don't buy that, and and I guess they do kinda buy it in bulk, but why why spend why did Winchester see a need in the dove world to to put the kind of technology y'all did behind this one?
Nathan Robinson:Well Yeah. Go for was gonna say, you know, we have a plant in Oxford, Mississippi, and they they asked for it. They said, hey, we need you guys to build us a high brass magnum dove load. That's what they like to shoot and
Jimmy Wilson:And we've got some big customers that are Texas based and they feel likewise. I mean Mhmm. We all the time are trying to figure out what the ultimate dove load is for Texas because that's similar to here. I think there's a a pocket here where dove hunting is really taken seriously. Statewide, Texas is nuts about doves and dove leases, and they hunt them like crazy, and we move a lot of product to that end user.
Jimmy Wilson:And so it was important for us to find a way to just keep innovating. We've got this culture where we're always tweaking things and looking for ways to improve, and so this is just another, you know, step in that direction of trying to find the ultimate dove load and make sure we're giving people what they want.
John Gordon:Another point about Texas is that, you know, and unlike here, it's the white winged dove. The white winged dove is a much bigger bird and, you know, it just takes more to to bring them down. So I think that's for another reason why you're seeing a big push for a little like that in Texas.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Well, it's it's guaranteed not to not to disappoint as long as you find them.
John Gordon:I'm looking forward
Jimbo Robinson:to shooting
John Gordon:something. Let's put it that way because I I have a feeling it's gonna be like a death ray.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. Just a couple more days. We're almost there.
John Gordon:And I'll be in Texas, you know, we will leave Sunday, you know, so I will be I'll be up near Anson, is a little northwest of Abilene.
Jimbo Robinson:Well, I think that's yeah. And that's that's interesting because when I go and buy dove loads, most of time, I I spend a little time kinda looking and seeing, but this year, it was kind of harder to find. And then this one caught my eye more than anything else has in a long time because of the blend and just the magnum dove. Like, you don't the word magnum and dove just don't go together, and so that's what Yeah. That's right.
John Gordon:They catch you dry.
Jimbo Robinson:I was like, magnum Yeah.
John Gordon:We're shooting
Jimmy Wilson:pigeons? I mean, it gets back to that. Is there too much? Right.
Jimbo Robinson:I don't think so.
Jimmy Wilson:Too much money? Too much shotshell power?
Jimbo Robinson:Is it faster than most?
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. I mean, that's running at 1,400 feet That's per
Jimbo Robinson:a hot load. That's a hot load.
John Gordon:Absolutely. Yeah. That's they would call like a, you know, like a international trap load.
Jimmy Wilson:Mhmm. Yeah. Like your standard target loads around eleven twenty five, eleven forty feet per second, so you're quite a bit faster than that. That's higher than even our sporting clay loads that are around thirteen fifty. Well So it's really moving, which that's important because
Jimbo Robinson:It's all I need one box. Week. Right?
Jimmy Wilson:Well, I'm not gonna I haven't seen you shoot yet.
John Gordon:I could I could show you one, Jim.
Jimmy Wilson:I've got lot
Jimbo Robinson:things. Based on this, I'm I may only need one, John.
John Gordon:That's right. I know where to find one.
Jimmy Wilson:So by moving it fast, it takes some of the questioning out of your lead. If you've a crossing bird like you often do with doves, trying to figure out where to hold and point your gun can be tricky, and the faster it is, the less leads required and the more you're gonna hit birds.
Jimbo Robinson:Because a lot of people lock on that front. Right? They put they try to get the front
John Gordon:of Yeah. You know? And well, anyway, you know, historically, I think the dove is called is taking more shells per dove killed than any other bird there is. Right?
Jimmy Wilson:Oh, for sure.
Jimbo Robinson:If you have a nine year old or a son that shoots with you, you can guarantee that.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Boxes per dove. Right?
Jimmy Wilson:Oh, I
Nathan Robinson:would But not doves per box.
Jimmy Wilson:Most of those misses aren't in front of the dove. No. So by increasing velocity, you're just helping get that shot up there a little further and hopefully hit the the bird.
Jimbo Robinson:Yeah. And explaining to to, you know, a young person that when the dove dips, it's not because you got close to it. They just do that.
John Gordon:They just do that.
Jimbo Robinson:That I did it. It dipped. No, it didn't. That's just how they
John Gordon:fly. That's morning dove.
Nathan Robinson:Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Jimbo Robinson:Well, what is what's what's the season look like for y'all? When does when does when does the water fouling by really take off for y'all? And y'all kinda see because for y'all, I guess, you know, I know you launched this this summer. We got to see firsthand of it at DUX, our sportsman show in August, but when do you really see what all that hard work really takes off? When's the happy days around Winchester?
Jimbo Robinson:We're in them.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. In the heart. Yeah. People are starting to buy them now. We're getting feedback from from our customers about these new products and how they're starting to move, you know, in the early seasons.
Nathan Robinson:So, yeah.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. Fortunately, people have kind of been trained by some of the major retailers to look ahead and be planning for duck season, and so even though we've still got a ways, people are excited about it, and there's a lot of big waterfowl retailers that have, you know, their parking lot sales or festivals, and they're doing free shipping and discounts. We've got a rebate right now. A what? We've got a cash back rebate on waterfowl.
Jimmy Wilson:Haven't heard of rebate in a long time. Exciting time. So really is a good time to be thinking ahead Absolutely. Buying your shelves, and the manufacturer and the retailers are rewarding people for doing that.
Jimbo Robinson:Getting out ahead of it. And I think that that whole, you know, you gotta get them now, that mentality has not gone away for a while.
John Gordon:No. And you think about it. I mean, got the big duck season is opening up throughout the North here in September. You got I mean, a a big one, you know, that I really love is early teal. Right?
John Gordon:And y'all got the, you know, the expert teal steel loads. I mean, you've got steel game and target. I mean, y'all are really covering the entire waterfowling space really with what you with the loadings you have now.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. But it's tough to find a load that's not suited for your exact hunting situation, isn't it?
Jimbo Robinson:Oh, there's y'all have it.
Nathan Robinson:We try.
Jimbo Robinson:I mean, that's that's what's The
Jimmy Wilson:toughest thing is figuring out which one it is, and so we're trying to do more of this to educate people on what the differences are so they're a little less confused when they end up at the store and they see those different options, and we've got some great resources online too. We've got one that's about to drop. It's a whole video series where we do a bunch of testing on patterns and ballistics gel and talk through those features and benefits and help people figure out what product is right for them. And we've got some resources like this little pamphlet that we've got here that goes through each of our waterfowl products, and that's available online, but we've also been handing it out at a bunch of consumer shows and retail events just to try to get people aware of, you know, what we have and what's the best fit for them.
Jimbo Robinson:Absolutely. So anything else you guys want to announce to the to the world today while you're in here with us? Any exciting thing? Anything you can I mean, we've covered?
Nathan Robinson:We covered a lot.
Jimbo Robinson:We have covered a lot.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. I think the only other thing before we wrap up is just to remind everybody that DU is making a difference in this space, and we're the beneficiaries of that as an ammo maker, as a hunter. We get to, you know, reap the rewards for all the work that DU is doing, and so we thank you guys for all the work you do to spread the message, to gain membership, to raise dollars, and we're proud to be one of those people that's contributing to that pot of money to help you reach your goals. And like you said, it's been a long time. Been partners at a high level.
Jimmy Wilson:We're really proud of the fact that we're the official ammunition of Ducks Unlimited. I don't know if they can see that.
John Gordon:Yeah, they're on the side of
Jimmy Wilson:the box.
Jimbo Robinson:We got
Jimmy Wilson:a nice duck head on most of our waterfowl boxes just to recognize what you guys are doing for that waterfowl space, and thank you for that.
Jimbo Robinson:Well, we thank y'all, and that that real estate's prime, and and we it means the world to us here at Ducks Unlimited to have, you know, it's as big as the Winchester logo on top, and I know that that that says a lot for for what you guys mean to us at DU and and what we hopefully mean to y'all in in this partnership that's been, you know, just so we're not we'll say 30 ish years old.
Jimmy Wilson:Somewhere between 30 and 85. 85.
Nathan Robinson:They're 80.
Jimbo Robinson:30 years old. This shows the impact in in in the conservation minds that you all have, and and making great shells for for our members and supporters is what y'all do, and and we try to provide that habitat so that people can enjoy taking these shells out and and putting them to use every fall when when the cooler temps. I don't know if y'all brought them today, but this morning was cool. It's gorgeous how it If you're an outdoorsman, if you're a hunter, that first cool morning, this is the first year I can remember where I walked out this morning and it was I I felt fall, and I was like, it's still August.
John Gordon:Yeah. It was really you could've wore a light jacket this morning and for August and here around here, pretty unheard of. So Yeah. Hopefully that just it means that we're gonna have a a real winter.
Jimbo Robinson:So if you haven't bought your Blue Rocket shells yet Yeah. Teal season is coming. Dove season's coming. Check out this magnum dove.
John Gordon:Oh, yeah.
Jimbo Robinson:I'm gonna take one box to the field Monday, September 1 in the afternoon because the guys told me that that's all
John Gordon:I needed. That's all you need.
Jimmy Wilson:I can't wait to hear the report.
John Gordon:You know, 15 shots.
Jimbo Robinson:Only have one box I'm stealing from John here in just a minute.
Nathan Robinson:He needs the he needs the other 19.
Jimbo Robinson:I do.
John Gordon:Well, one case is 12, one's 20. Right?
Jimbo Robinson:So you got I got it covered. Yeah. I only bought 20 gauge. But let's before we close out, let's we kinda bounce around a little bit. Let's do give us a real quick rundown.
Jimbo Robinson:Let's start at expert and just give people just a very quick, hey, this is what it is in the price range real fast. Start from the top, bottom, and let's work to the top.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. I mean, start with Expert, you know, that's your best value, you know, legendary performance, reliable, you know, year after year, you're gonna bring down ducks. You're in there for, you know, $200 a case, you know, depending on load specs, sometimes less, right? Especially with the rebate on right now, can get under there. Then dry lock precision ground plated steel shot, highly water resistant, you have the dry lock wad, sealed primer, plated shot, right, it's got all the bells and whistles, it's been around for, you know, thirty plus years.
Nathan Robinson:Again, legendary waterfowl load.
Jimbo Robinson:Absolutely.
Nathan Robinson:So, and you're talking, you know, $25.30 bucks a box, you know, We have so many load specs in there, you can get up to, you know, in 10 gauge, $45 a box or so depending on, you know, retailer. The next step up would be final pass, so much like dry lock again, precision ground steel shot, plated, you have copper plated shot which is the half size shots, then the zinc plated shots, standard size shots, again, dry lock wads, sealed primer and blended payloads. That's the big difference, right? You have the two different shot sizes blended in there. That's gonna be about $30 a box, so.
Nathan Robinson:Then Last Double Shot.
Jimbo Robinson:The newest.
Nathan Robinson:One of the newest Final Pass and Last Call Double Shot brand new this year. Call Double Shot is stacked steel and TSS, that high density 18 gram per cc tungsten shot TSS shot. So about 30% of the pellet count will be the TSS, fills out those patterns and you're talking about, you know, $50 for a box of 25, so $2 $2 a shot. Now, it's pricey, but the performance is there. You're getting TSS performance.
Jimbo Robinson:More efficient.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. So, you know, we we skipped over bismuth. We
Jimmy Wilson:Probably good.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. Bismuth is gonna be really tough to Yeah. Talk about Bismuth is is gonna be real we have enough bismuth for this year, but next year is, you know, it's it's really uncertain right now just because of bismuth shot availability, you know, all of that is imported to The US and it's gonna be tough to to manufacture bismuth next year. So, mean, that's that's a that's a performance level that's, you know, right on par with Last Call Double Shot, maybe arguably a little bit better, but it's gonna be tough to tough to find. So if you're if you're a current
Jimbo Robinson:It can't be better if you can't find it.
Nathan Robinson:That's right.
John Gordon:Yeah. That's
Nathan Robinson:it. Yeah. So if you're shooting Bismarck now and you wanna keep shooting it, take advantage of that rebate. It's rebate eligible and stock up. So
Jimbo Robinson:That's what's gonna happen
Nathan Robinson:too. Likely.
Jimbo Robinson:Yeah. Yeah. Those guys that have to have it. Yeah, they're gonna take it all. So it's true.
Jimbo Robinson:So it's true. This is not
Nathan Robinson:Oh, yeah. Yep. It's not it's not
Jimbo Robinson:the old
Nathan Robinson:The smoke signals like Right.
Jimbo Robinson:I was laughing with my dad the other day, said, look, you know, are these bismuths, is this what it felt like in the lead world? Right? Like when lead was going away
John Gordon:and Well, lead never went away. God was there.
Jimbo Robinson:Right? Couldn't it anymore. Waterfowl.
Nathan Robinson:We just can't get bismuth.
Jimbo Robinson:You think we'll ever get bismuth again?
Nathan Robinson:I do. Yeah. I think things will change, but, you know, I don't know when, you know, we'd be guessing.
Jimbo Robinson:Right.
Nathan Robinson:So, I mean, you can still get it. The problem is the price doesn't make sense. You might as well buy buy tungsten. Right. So So Yeah.
Nathan Robinson:That leads us to last call, TSS. You know, that's the highest performing waterfowl load on the market. You you can't beat it. It's a 100% TSS shot. Again, that 18 gram per cc density shot.
Jimbo Robinson:Will you ever make a six or an eight? I've always wondered that. Why don't somebody just put six shells in a box?
Nathan Robinson:Six shells or number six shot?
Jimbo Robinson:Just six shells.
Nathan Robinson:Six shells.
John Gordon:That's all you need for a limit, Jimbo. You know?
Jimbo Robinson:That would be kinda funny though.
Nathan Robinson:I probably shove six twenty gauge shells in that 12 gauge box for you.
Jimmy Wilson:At the rate inflation is going, maybe you'll start buying shells one at a time.
John Gordon:I need I got one shell.
Jimbo Robinson:So, well,
Jimmy Wilson:I mean, it's all here. And from a company that's owned and operated in America, has thousands of employees who are your neighbors, your friends, your family, and who love DU and the same pastimes, and so we hope that people choose to support the companies that support them and the things they're passionate about.
Jimbo Robinson:Made in The USA.
John Gordon:Yeah. Like I said, y'all got a plant right here in Oxford down the road.
Jimmy Wilson:That's right.
John Gordon:Really from Memphis here.
Nathan Robinson:Yep. Yeah. We have three facilities, you know, manufacturing in The US. We have the East Alton, Illinois shotshell facility, Oxford, Mississippi, which is, you know, rifle, pistol, rimfire. We operate the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant out in Independence, Missouri.
Nathan Robinson:That's where all the 5 five six, two two three, seven six two NATO comes from. We support the warfighter out of out of that facility. And then we have a recently acquired facility in Manitowoc, Wisconsin that does centerfire rifle and pistol, and they have some unique capabilities to do some of the the specialty centerfire rifle cartridges, which is really exciting for us. So we'll see better availability of some of those more obscure or lesser known centerfire rifle cartridges in the in the near future, which is great.
John Gordon:So Oh, yeah. That's cool. And Winchester got a bunch of old cool rifles and all those calibers. Right? Absolutely.
Jimmy Wilson:Yeah. In addition to those four plants, we've also got our White Flyer plants. Mhmm. I think there's five of those across the country. Yep.
Jimmy Wilson:And so when you're practicing for duck season, pick up a white flyer target. Make the best clay birds there are, and they'll break even better than ducks. Yeah. That's right. Make you feel good about shooting, give you some confidence going into the season.
Jimbo Robinson:Wow. Well, we can't thank you all enough for for making the trip into this into the studio and just spending time with us and and telling people what they wanna hear. I think that's educating the waterfowl hunters on the shell and and what they're shooting and understanding what they're shooting is a big deal today. And and a lot of people don't take the time to really to to either pattern their gun or even know what they're shooting. They just go and buy based on on marketing or based on whatever.
Jimbo Robinson:But when you sit down and you really understand what you're shooting, it says a lot about about Winchester and and the fact that y'all took the time to explain each one of these shells and and what it and what it can do. And and with somebody that that knows what they're doing behind a shotgun, it goes a long way. And I just it means the world to us here at Ducks Unlimited to see the Winchester brand when we walk around the office and and to have the legendary brands that have been partners with us for so long. It just means a lot to us, and it makes us proud, and and we thank you all enough for coming down and and spending time with us today and explaining this.
Nathan Robinson:Yeah. We appreciate the opportunity. It's it's been great,
Jimbo Robinson:and and I'm really excited. I mean, I think I'm really more excited that we're on the edge. We're right on the verge of of being able to
John Gordon:It's it's been a long summer.
Jimbo Robinson:It has, and it's been hot, And and and when that when that cold hits every every fall, it gets you just fired up and Oh,
John Gordon:I imagine I imagine the first Specabellies are cruising through Arkansas. Right? Absolutely.
Jimbo Robinson:Yeah. I know. And and teal season's three, two and a half weeks away for for most in
John Gordon:in Arkansas. September 20, I believe, in this part of the world. That's when it's gonna open. I mean, short season this year, but, you know, hopefully, the numbers are up. We'll be back to 16.
Jimbo Robinson:Well, Jimmy, Nathan, thank y'all. Appreciate it. So proud to to have Winchester just this ride along with the Ducks Unlimited brand, and it means so much to us, and and we're looking forward to I can't wait to we need to follow-up and and and do this again in the spring. Yeah. And let's hear about the last call, the double shot, and and see in the final pass, and let's hear what because y'all are gonna get a lot of stories, and and hopefully, you'll get a lot of stories out of us and and talk about, the day I took six shell TSS shells out with me, and didn't come home with the dub.
John Gordon:And 15 magnum dubs.
Jimbo Robinson:15. Hey, there may be some pigeons. I may need those extra 10 for some pigeons that fly by. Thanks again for listening to us on the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I'm Jimbo Robinson.
Jimbo Robinson:Catch us on the next
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